Where is Marvin Hagler in your Top Middleweights ATG?

[jyuza]

Originally Posted by TBooze

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Is a good starting point

I still don't know where you saw the 180+ NC bouts.

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Which fight with Tommy Loughran was below 160lb limit?
Mickey Walker was a useless fight with blown-up welterweight, as it was considered in contemporary sources and it turned out exactly that way, one-sided bout. For Greb to earn some money, was all it was.

How can you say that after all the bigger guys Walker went on to compete against and beat?

If you want to see a useless fight with a blown up welterweight to ean some easy money, look no further than Hopkins-DLH.

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by jyuza

I still don't know where you saw the 180+ NC bouts.

What; you need to check your eye sight my friend...

Harry Greb 299 fights; 106 wins; 8 losses; 3 draws; 182 no decisions

[sweet_scientist]

On the whole I'd say newspaper accounts have proved more reliable than judges' scorecards over the years, so does it really matter that they were no decision bouts?

[Senya13]

Don't people claim RJJ doesn't belong because he didn't do much at 160lb? Well, the thing is neither Harry Greb, nor Mickey Walker have done much at 160lb limit either. The bout with Walker was an exciting one, but it was one-sided in almost all rounds, Walker was still a welterweight and inexperienced.
Walker's victory over Flowers is his only significant achievement at 160lb, but what kind of victory that was, we all know.

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

On the whole I'd say newspaper accounts have proved more reliable than judges' scorecards over the years, so does it really matter that they were no decision bouts?

Yes, offically they were no decisions, Frawley Law, the orginitator of the no decision bout, is an important part of the sport. Without it boxing would not be legal in many parts of the USA.

Greb as well as every other fighter knew this and were prepared to deal with it, so they could be paid legally. So Greb ends up with at least 180 no decisions on his record.

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Don't people claim RJJ doesn't belong because he didn't do much at 160lb? Well, the thing is neither Harry Greb, nor Mickey Walker have done much at 160lb limit either. The bout with Walker was an exciting one, but it was one-sided in almost all rounds, Walker was still a welterweight and inexperienced.
Walker's victory over Flowers is his only significant achievement at 160lb, but what kind of victory that was, we all know.

Well for starters, we don't have the weights of each fighter in a lot fo Greb fights. Some of them might have taken place below the 160 pound limit.

Secondly, yes, a lot of his fights were above 160, but for all intents and purposes they were contests between middleweights (or a middleweight and a lightheavyweight in many instances) that were taking place outside of title fights where the fighters didn't have to meet the 160 limit. They weren't even fully fledged supermiddles (and probably by today's standards, weren't even fully fledged middles).

So technically perhaps, yes, Greb had a lot of fights above 160, but really, he wasn't much more than a middleweight in most of those fights.

Senya, do you think he should be rated as a supermiddle or a lightheavy then?

[jyuza]

Originally Posted by TBooze

What; you need to check your eye sight my friend...

Harry Greb 299 fights; 106 wins; 8 losses; 3 draws; 182 no decisions

Well, my friend, take a closer look and you will see Greb books has +153 wins in his record.

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by TBooze

Yes, offically they were no decisions, Frawley Law, the orginitator of the no decision bout, is an important part of the sport. Without it boxing would not be legal in many parts of the USA.

Greb as well as every other fighter knew this and were prepared to deal with it, so they could be paid legally. So Greb ends up with at least 180 no decisions on his record.

How many no decisions would Willie Pep have in Greb's time? Would that make him the 8th or 9th best feather of all time?

[Senya13]

Greb should rank at light heavyweight.
He trained very hard for the Walker fight, but only got down to 159lb.
Most of his significant fights took place at light heavyweight limit. For his relentless style to be most effective he needed to have little excessive weight, yet most of them had taken place above 160lb, so he probably felt that weight suit him better than going below 160lb. There's a legend that he never trained very hard, so this might be some excessive weight, but in fact he trained a lot, it was only a trick he often used to make his opponents believe he was out of shape. He showed up with girls, with a cigar, etc, but it was only playing for the public.
Using the arguments that are often mentioned here, had Greb and his opponents been fighting today, they'd be more muscled and weigh several pounds heavier too, again - they'd still be either 168 or 175-pounders.

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by sweet_scientist

How many no decisions would Willie Pep have in Greb's time? Would that make him the 8th or 9th best feather of all time?

But he did not fight in the era. He had no no decision bouts!

It is like asking what if my aunty was my uncle...

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Greb should rank at light heavyweight.
He trained very hard for the Walker fight, but only got down to 159lb.
Most of his significant fights took place at light heavyweight limit. For his relentless style to be most effective he needed to have little excessive weight, yet most of them had taken place above 160lb, so he probably felt that weight suit him better than going below 160lb. There's a legend that he never trained very hard, so this might be some excessive weight, but in fact he trained a lot, it was only a trick he often used to make his opponents believe he was out of shape. He showed up with girls, with a cigar, etc, but it was only playing for the public.
Using the arguments that are often mentioned here, had Greb and his opponents been fighting today, they'd be more muscled and weigh several pounds heavier too, again - they'd still be either 168 or 175-pounders.

I think you could rate him both at middle and light heavy, but he spent the majority of his career as a small light heavy. That still makes him a light heavy, but he was never really a fully fledged light heavy. In most of his key fights he weighed in the 160s.

In any case, I would rate him highliy at middle based on many of the things he did weighing in the mid 160s. It is based on speculation but I think he COULD have made 160 quite a bit more often if he fought for the middleweight title more often. People often dont like to take account of what a fighter did at a higher weight class when rating a fighter at a certain lower weight class but I think it is somewhat myopic to do so.

For instance, take Floyd Mayweather. Would he really rate top 50 at lightweight if we don't take account of what he did in other weight classes? A controversial fight with Castillo most felt he lost and a rematch he won clearly but didn't dominate. Then a less than impressive performance against Victoriano Sosa. Is that enough to put him top 50 at lightweight? I could name 50 lightweights with better accomplishments. But measuring his talent and what he accomplished at other weights, it seems foolish to rate him so low.

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by TBooze

But he did not fight in the era. He had no no decision bouts!

It is like asking what if my aunty was my uncle...

Yeah, but what if she was... ?!?

[Senya13]

Key fights?

1917-07-30 Jack Dillon - 165
1918-02-25 Mike O'Dowd - 155.5
1919-02-17 Battling Levinsky - 164.5
1919-05-08 Willie Meehan - 166
1922-03-13 Tommy Gibbons - 163.5
1922-05-23 Gene Tunney - 162.25
1923-01-15 Tommy Loughran - 168.25
1923-01-30 Tommy Loughran - 166
1923-10-11 Tommy Loughran - 168
1923-12-10 Gene Tunney - 171.5
1923-12-25 Tommy Loughran - 168
1924-04-19 Kid Norfolk - 172.75
1924-08-21 Tiger Flowers - 167
1924-09-03 Jimmy Slattery - 163.5
1924-09-17 Gene Tunney - 166
1925-03-27 Gene Tunney - 167.5
1925-07-02 Mickey Walker - 159
1926-02-03 Jimmy Delaney - 164
1926-02-26 Tiger Flowers - 159.5
1926-08-19 Tiger Flowers - 159

Out of 4 key fights at 160lb limit (where weight is known) he lost three and won only one fight (over welterweight Walker). And I heard stories that making middleweight limit for Walker fight hurt him somewhat. I'm certain that had he attempted to fight the above key fights while weighing below 160lb, it'd hurt him also, he needed energy for his style, and it would probably add up several more losses to his record.

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Are you completely retarded? He is 259-21-17, what are you looking at? Are you blind?

Nothing wrong with being considered 'retarded', indeed some of them people are simply amazing, far better than me.

You are making things up, the ref raised Greb's hand (the sign of a victor in pro boxing) that we know of 106 times.