Where is Marvin Hagler in your Top Middleweights ATG?

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Key fights?

1917-07-30 Jack Dillon - 165
1918-02-25 Mike O'Dowd - 155.5
1919-02-17 Battling Levinsky - 164.5
1919-05-08 Willie Meehan - 166
1922-03-13 Tommy Gibbons - 163.5
1922-05-23 Gene Tunney - 162.25
1923-01-15 Tommy Loughran - 168.25
1923-01-30 Tommy Loughran - 166
1923-10-11 Tommy Loughran - 168
1923-12-10 Gene Tunney - 171.5
1923-12-25 Tommy Loughran - 168
1924-04-19 Kid Norfolk - 172.75
1924-08-21 Tiger Flowers - 167
1924-09-03 Jimmy Slattery - 163.5
1924-09-17 Gene Tunney - 166
1925-03-27 Gene Tunney - 167.5
1925-07-02 Mickey Walker - 159
1926-02-03 Jimmy Delaney - 164
1926-02-26 Tiger Flowers - 159.5
1926-08-19 Tiger Flowers - 159

Out of 4 key fights at 160lb limit (where weight is known) he lost three and won only one fight (over welterweight Walker). And I heard stories that making middleweight limit for Walker fight hurt him somewhat. I'm certain that had he attempted to fight the above key fights while weighing below 160lb, it'd hurt him also, he needed energy for his style, and it would probably add up several more losses to his record.

How about fights with Al McCoy, Mike McTigue and Eddie McGoorty where he was a middleweight? And how about certain bouts with Jack Blackburn, George Chip, Battling Levinsky, Jack Dillon, Billy Miske, Mike Gibbons and Tommy Gibbons? Was he above the middleweight limit for ALL of those fights?

Sure, Greb had most of his important fights weighing more than 160, but saying all he pretty much did that was significant at 160 was to lose a bunch of times to Flowers and beat a welterweight I think sells him short.

[Senya13]

How are these three key fights?
Al McCoy -"Greb won every round..Never did he fight an easier opponent."
Mike McTigue - no weight for 2nd fight, the 1st, "It was a very easy win for Harry." and 1917-1918 weren't good years for McTigue, no good at all.
Eddie McGoorty - no weight listed, and he had not achieved a single meaningful win after his return.

If you have weights for those other fights, list them here. But, please, exclude the Jack Blackburn fight (also didn't win a single meaningful fight after his return to the ring and was coming off a W1-L7 series).

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Senya13

How are these three key fights?
Al McCoy -"Greb won every round..Never did he fight an easier opponent."

Well, how about crediting Greb for some of that? McCoy was on the slide, but Greb gave him a hell of a whooping.

Mike McTigue - no weight for 2nd fight, the 1st, "It was a very easy win for Harry." and 1917-1918 weren't good years for McTigue, no good at all.

Well, Greb beat him easy when he was up and he beat him easy when he was down.

Eddie McGoorty - no weight listed, and he had not achieved a single meaningful win after his return.

It was fought for the "service middleweight title". I'm assuming they had to make weight, but say they didn't... the report still says that it was a great fight and McGoorty put up plenty of opposition.

If you have weights for those other fights, list them here. But, please, exclude the Jack Blackburn fight (also didn't win a single meaningful fight after his return to the ring and was coming off a W1-L7 series).

I don't have weights for those fights, but I suspect some could have been under the middleweight limit.

E.g.

For the 1917-05-22 fight against George Chip he had weighed 155 and a half 3 days earlier against Jeff Smith.

The 1918-08-06 fight with Battling Levinsky came 10 days before the McGoorty fight, which was fought as I said for the "service middleweight title". Two weeks later he weighed 150 for the Billy Miske fight.

The 1918-03-04 fight against Jack Dillon came between bouts with Mike O'Dowd (where he weighed 155 1/2 and Mike McTigue where he weighed 160).
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[Senya13]

I'm sure 150 is a wrong weight, a typo. I don't have a local source fight report, but non-local would surely mention if there was a 24 pounds difference between the two, but it only mentions Miske heavyweight, Greb middleweight.
The point is even you find a couple more fights where he weighed under middleweight limit, I'm absolutely sure I could find weights for several more key fights where he weighed above 160lb (because in the 1920's Greb didn't train down to below 160lb unless it was a middleweight title fight).

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Senya13

I'm sure 150 is a wrong weight, a typo. I don't have a local source fight report, but non-local would surely mention if there was a 24 pounds difference between the two, but it only mentions Miske heavyweight, Greb middleweight.
The point is even you find a couple more fights where he weighed under middleweight limit, I'm absolutely sure I could find weights for several more key fights where he weighed above 160lb (because in the 1920's Greb didn't train down to below 160lb unless it was a middleweight title fight).

The 150 is probably more realistically 160. It would make more sense.

I don't doubt at all that some (probably most) of the key fights with unlisted weights would have been fought above the middleweight limit, but I also think a fair amount would be at 160 or so, give or take a pound or two. As such, Greb as a middleweight amounts to more than a perpetual loser to Tiger Flowers with one win over a welterweight.

[Senya13]

But if, let's say, 80 to 90% of his meaningful victories happened above middleweight limit, in light heavyweight division (at the time, super middle having been introduced only in 1980s), why should he be ranked as a great middleweight? He obviously felt himself better above 160lb, that was his normal weight for most fights in late 1910's and most of 1920's.

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Senya13

But if, let's say, 80 to 90% of his meaningful victories happened above middleweight limit, in light heavyweight division (at the time, super middle having been introduced only in 1980s), why should he be ranked as a great middleweight? He obviously felt himself better above 160lb, that was his normal weight for most fights in late 1910's and most of 1920's.

Fighting bigger men as he often was, it would have been silly for him to get down to 160 for those fights. When fighting bigger men he did feel comfortable often being mid 160's. The majority of his career defining fights did occur above 160 so it does make sense to rate him as a light heavy. I don't think its a massive stretch to rate him as a middleweight either though.

Take Henry Armstrong as another example. How many career defining fights did he have at featherweight? The majority occured at lightweight and welterweight true? Does that mean he can't rank as a featherweight (and at the top of the featherweight rankings)?

[Senya13]

Well, I guess my problem with ranking Greb at middleweight is that absolute majority of rankings put him at middleweight and usually in Top 5, while refusing a place at middleweight for RJJ, for example, claiming most of his meaningful fights had taken place above 160lb. There's double standard, allowing this to one fighter, and refusing a place there to the other, although the circumstances are almost identical.

[sweet_scientist]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Well, I guess my problem with ranking Greb at middleweight is that absolute majority of rankings put him at middleweight and usually in Top 5, while refusing a place at middleweight for RJJ, for example, claiming most of his meaningful fights had taken place above 160lb. There's double standard, allowing this to one fighter, and refusing a place there to the other, although the circumstances are almost identical.

Yeah I understand that. I'm all for giving Jones a high middleweight ranking myself, even if my positioning of him would take account of how he performed at heigher weights. Something always gnaws at me when I see Bernard Hopkins placed higher than him at middleweight. It's hard to accept. Jones beats him and beats everyone Hopkins beat any day of the week.

I rate Mayweather higher than Jose Luis Castillo at lightweight and and I think Castillo actually beat Floyd once. You can imagine how I feel about Hopkins being higher than Jones when Jones pretty much breezed past him. (Hopkins of course hadn't yet peaked, but I saw nothing in his peak that would suggest that he could get beyond an 8-4 with a two handed Jones).