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Old 11-09-2011, 06:19 PM   #31
mcvey
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
How about this. The 1908-1910 Jack Johnson beats ANY version of Sam Langford.
I concur with this.
Shorter men that came into a prime Jack got murdered.
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Old 11-09-2011, 06:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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Originally Posted by SuzieQ49 View Post
How about this. The 1908-1910 Jack Johnson beats ANY version of Sam Langford.
I'd go as far as saying the 05-10 version beats any version of langford
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Old 11-09-2011, 06:20 PM   #33
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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There is certainly some substance to your argument, but equally ,we should not automatically assume that Langford was allways in the best of shape himself during this period.
And, possibly some of his uneven results reflect that?
I think that if Langford had been offered a shot at Johnsons title, he would have been well motivated, and would have turned up in shape.

Langfords training declined considerably around 1913, when he realised that he was probably never going to get his title shot.
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Old 11-09-2011, 06:22 PM   #34
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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I think that if Langford had been offered a shot at Johnsons title, he would have been well motivated, and would have turned up in shape.

Langfords training declined considerably around 1913, when he realised that he was probably never going to get his title shot.
I think that if Johnson and Langford had got into a ring for Jack's title, Jack would have been in shape, don't you?
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:19 PM   #35
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

i agree with susie's analysis here. bad style matchup for sam but with the number of fights he and others fought back then maybe sam gets jack once or twice in a 5 or 6 fight series. sam would have to win an ugly fight and just outwork jack imo.
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:20 PM   #36
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

Prime v.s. prime - Johnson

Post 1910 - Langford
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Old 11-09-2011, 07:29 PM   #37
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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I think that if Johnson and Langford had got into a ring for Jack's title, Jack would have been in shape, don't you?
I certainly agree he would have been very highly motivated to retain his championship against this particular opponent.

For Sam to dethrone Jack, he'd have to somehow produce a knockout. Langford was derided in some quarters as a ten round fighter until Jeannette X in Paris was filmed. But even during that three knockdown 13th round pounding Sam inflicted on Joe, he couldn't close the deal.

Lil' Artha' was very impressive in rounds 13 and 14 against Willard in Havana, even at a weight of 225 under a scorching sun in stifling humidity. Yes, with both properly motivated and in good condition, there's no time in Johnson's reign when Sam would have been able to successfully dethrone him.

Although Langford's hook was terrific in close quarters, Jack's physical strength, clinching skills and ripping right uppercut would have made it no sure thing that Sam could get the best of matters if he got inside. Johnson was a considerable level or two above the smaller Jeannette, who did show some success in Paris boxing Langford from the outside.
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Old 11-10-2011, 07:31 AM   #38
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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I certainly agree he would have been very highly motivated to retain his championship against this particular opponent.

For Sam to dethrone Jack, he'd have to somehow produce a knockout. Langford was derided in some quarters as a ten round fighter until Jeannette X in Paris was filmed. But even during that three knockdown 13th round pounding Sam inflicted on Joe, he couldn't close the deal.

Lil' Artha' was very impressive in rounds 13 and 14 against Willard in Havana, even at a weight of 225 under a scorching sun in stifling humidity. Yes, with both properly motivated and in good condition, there's no time in Johnson's reign when Sam would have been able to successfully dethrone him.

Although Langford's hook was terrific in close quarters, Jack's physical strength, clinching skills and ripping right uppercut would have made it no sure thing that Sam could get the best of matters if he got inside. Johnson was a considerable level or two above the smaller Jeannette, who did show some success in Paris boxing Langford from the outside.
Pleasure to read
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Old 11-10-2011, 07:37 AM   #39
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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you need to look deeper and put things into context man. from his 1911 victory over jeannette upto but not including his 1915 loss to jeannette, he was quite clearly the most impressive hw in the world as demonstrated by the breakdown I gave you.

who is comparing this run with johnson's pre-title run

we're talking about a possible rematch between the two with me giving the timefram I'd give same the best chance as 1911-1915 (by 1915 it drops to 50/50 for the reasons I gave to kurupt)
Well fair play I wouldn't dispute he's the most deserving challenger but the theory that he suddenly became an unbeatable forced and better than Johnson, when he wasn't fighting anyone close to Johnson's ability level, when Johnson had previously completely dominated him and when Langford was still picking up losses is something I have a problem. We also have to bare in mind that if as many state Langford was past his prime when Wills was beating him, well doesn't that mean he was gradually declining after 1910 himself?
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Old 11-10-2011, 11:45 AM   #40
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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Where your theory breaks down, is in the fact that Johnson goes into nosedive in 1910, while Langford continues to improve.

Ultimately, you ought to be able to hand pick a point in the timeline, where Langford wins.
As usual you make a good point Janitor, but I'm not sure I totally agree. I think Johnson (like you mentioned with Sam) would've come in good shape if he knew he was fighting Langford. Next, in a 20 round fight, I don't think Sam can beat Johnson even in 1912 or 1913. The reason I say this is because Sam would need more rounds to take Johnson out and break down his defense and let his not prime state take over. Willard who was a Giant with a solid chin and punch couldn't do much to a 37 year old well past his best Johnson in tropical heat until after the 20th round where he started to wear down. Difference is, I don't think Sam could've taken the shots willard did when Johnson was trying to get him out of there nor do I think Sam could get to Johnson before 20. So while you make a good point, I honestly believe Johnson just has Sam's number and would train better then other fights if he knew he had to face him.
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Old 11-11-2011, 09:24 PM   #41
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

"I'll sum it up nice and short, cause I don't feel like going into detail. Sam Langford was made for Jack Johnson. A 5'6 stationary fighter who didn't move much, hardly moved his head, and was hittable was a prime target for a 6'1 defensive fighter who threw a nice jab, had very fast hands/reflexes and great countering ability. Langford had the punch and finishing ability to knock out Johnson, but he would never get to him. Johnson would box his brains out at long range all night and counter Sam to death whenever he tried to get in close. Even if Sam got Johnson in clinches, Johnson was stronger than Sam at a chizzled 210lb, and with plenty of functional strength. Sam would not be able to wear down Johnson with his strength."

Just curious, did you reach the same conclusion concerning a possible match between Rocky Marciano and Jack Johnson?
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:56 PM   #42
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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Originally Posted by Cmoyle View Post
"I'll sum it up nice and short, cause I don't feel like going into detail. Sam Langford was made for Jack Johnson. A 5'6 stationary fighter who didn't move much, hardly moved his head, and was hittable was a prime target for a 6'1 defensive fighter who threw a nice jab, had very fast hands/reflexes and great countering ability. Langford had the punch and finishing ability to knock out Johnson, but he would never get to him. Johnson would box his brains out at long range all night and counter Sam to death whenever he tried to get in close. Even if Sam got Johnson in clinches, Johnson was stronger than Sam at a chizzled 210lb, and with plenty of functional strength. Sam would not be able to wear down Johnson with his strength."

Just curious, did you reach the same conclusion concerning a possible match between Rocky Marciano and Jack Johnson?
I agree with you that Jack Johnson at his best would handily defeat the much smaller Langford. Jack Johnson reminds me of a big cat, playing with a mouse. Never extending himself , just doing enough to win.. I think he was VERY impressive in his fight with Jess Willard. For a 37 year old man
fighting 26 rounds in a blazing sun in Havana, Lil Arthur did a helluva job,
until the 26th rd, when age and utter exhaution left Johnson open to a Willard right cross. When Ali was 37 years old ,he already lost to Leon Spinks, and Larry Holmes. The Jack Johnson who took Willard 25 tough rounds, would have surely whipped the 37 year ol Ali...
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:38 PM   #43
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

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Originally Posted by Cmoyle View Post
"I'll sum it up nice and short, cause I don't feel like going into detail. Sam Langford was made for Jack Johnson. A 5'6 stationary fighter who didn't move much, hardly moved his head, and was hittable was a prime target for a 6'1 defensive fighter who threw a nice jab, had very fast hands/reflexes and great countering ability. Langford had the punch and finishing ability to knock out Johnson, but he would never get to him. Johnson would box his brains out at long range all night and counter Sam to death whenever he tried to get in close. Even if Sam got Johnson in clinches, Johnson was stronger than Sam at a chizzled 210lb, and with plenty of functional strength. Sam would not be able to wear down Johnson with his strength."

Just curious, did you reach the same conclusion concerning a possible match between Rocky Marciano and Jack Johnson?

Couple Points


1) I do have Jack Johnson beating Rocky Marciano

2) Marciano actually had a good 4-5" in height on Sam Langford.

3) Marciano fought out of a crouch bobbing and weaving. The only thing him and Langford have him common is strength and power.
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:04 AM   #44
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

Couple Points


1) I do have Jack Johnson beating Rocky Marciano (Glad to hear that, because if you've got Johnson beating Langford I couldn't imagine you not having him beating Marciano as well. When it comes to Langford against Johnson a second time I tend to agree that Johnson would more than likely beat him again, just because Johnson was such a cautious fighter, but he would have had a punchers chance, much the same way Marciano did against Walcott the first time he fought him. I don't really consider their first fight a good measure of what would have happened a second time they fought. I know you or others have pointed out that Johnson was only 185 pounds and ultimately became a 205-210 pound heavyweight, but Langford was anywhere from a 140-156 lb. fighter when he faced Johnson in that first fight and I figure a 180-185 lb fighter is a much better match against a 205-210 pound fighter than a 140-156 lb fighter is against a 185 pounder.)

2) Marciano actually had a good 4-5" in height on Sam Langford. (Yeah, and Marciano's reach was reportly only 67" compared to Langford's 72".)

3) Marciano fought out of a crouch bobbing and weaving. The only thing him and Langford have him common is strength and power. (Well, maybe at least one other thing, heart. Jack Johnson said that Sam Langford was the toughest little S.O.B. that ever lived, I gotta hunch he would have felt the same way about Marciano.)
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:50 AM   #45
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Default Re: Just studied Sam Langford and Jack Johnson on film..my conclusion

Fair points all around. I agree on the heart concept, something I should not have excluded. I think the uppercut for Johnson is the main factor. Something Marciano and Langford would have really been battered with in close. You say Langford 140-156lb, but isn't it a fact Langford was 156lb and not 140lb? That's a big difference.

Also Johnson had a 29lb advantage on Langford, Jeffries often had 35-50lb weight advantages on his best opponents. Does this take away from Jeffries victories?
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