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Old 11-09-2011, 07:35 PM   #1
Pedderrs
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Default Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

Alexis Arguello
Julio Cesar Chavez
Joe Louis
Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran

Floyd Mayweather Jr


Just to clarify, I would like weaknesses directly related to how each fighter performs inside the ring. Assuming each of them are in their prime and have prepared the best way imaginable, what are they still not excelling at on fight night? If you only want to address one of the fighters, that's not a problem.

Last edited by Pedderrs; 11-09-2011 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

Arguello and Louis, I think, both were a bit methodical, maybe slow afoot, if you will. But to exploit that you had to be Billy Conn, so maybe it wasn't that big a deal after all.
With Chavez, and this came on after he moved up to 140, it was two things. First, he believed that all he had to do was walk forward, hook the body and win. So that was what he did; you saw the same thing with Trinidad years later, he became the one-dimensional fighter the stupid writers said he was. Second, at some point Chavez became too reliant on his chin. He'd take punches in order to make guys trade with him, so he could get to them without chasing them. The Terrance Alli fight comes to mind.
Whitaker, I think, was never a good enough offensive fighter. I can't see him beating Leonard, or Hearns, or Napoles, among several others (Griffith, Rodriguez, Basilio, Armstrong) because he couldn't keep them off him and they'd walk through or punch through his often illegal defensive gyrations.
Duran, at his peak, at LW...I'd have to say that it would be his conditioning, though that never came out because his opposition was basically bad. He was notorious for not training real hard, sometimes, but he never got called on it.
Thus far, and, admittedly, I don't watch much modern boxing, the biggest thing I see wrong with Mayweather is that he is content to win decisions. That doesn't bother me, personally, but other people seem to be bothered by it. I'd like to see him in the ring with a guy that will make him fight and dig deep.
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:12 PM   #3
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

Alexis was quite hittable for me, and went through lulls in fights where he seemed to be waiting for opportunities rather than setting them up. Not terribly quick at delivering two-handed combinations outside of the one-two, but had a pretty fast right cross. One of my favourite fighters to watch.
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Old 11-09-2011, 09:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

Louis didn't handle movement well.
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Old 11-09-2011, 10:28 PM   #5
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

Alexis Arguello- Took too long getting going. Beatable over 10-12 rounds with the right game plan as a result. Slow feet were the primary cause in his difficulties finding the range. Was also quite hittable despite his textbook style.

Julio Cesar Chavez- From a technical standpoint, not too much. His troubles were when he started having difficulties making the weight toward the latter end of his 130 run, and when his physical tools started to wane during the latter portion of his 140 reign.

Joe Louis- Similar to Arguello as far as the slower feet and defensive liabilities. It's possible his lesser physical attributes would hinder him in match-ups with the top tier of the Super Heavy class.

Pernell Whitaker- Lack of balance at times due to fundamental errors in his footwork. Led to a few flash knockdowns. He also had a tendency to coast at times, making fights closer than they ought to have been. Sometimes his flash and arrogance would bite him in the ass.

Roberto Duran- Inconsistent dedication was the main issue. While it's a cliche, he was not at his best against movers. That's not to say he was particularly inclined to exposure by them or anything, but his brand of pressure fighting didn't match up with them quite as well as, say, a Chavez's would. Then again, most fighters tend to have issues with the kinds of movers he faced.

Floyd Mayweather Jr.- Too reliant on his defensive counter-punching positioning. When he had it cracked against Castillo, he stunk up the joint in the rematch to make sure it didn't happen again, and showed that while a talented pot-shotter, he wasn't the back-foot boxing, consistent work-rate type a la Whitaker. Against the right fighter this would hurt him.
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Old 11-09-2011, 10:30 PM   #6
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

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Originally Posted by greynotsoold View Post
Whitaker, I think, was never a good enough offensive fighter.
That's just not true. He was a fantastic offensive fighter. The only thing he lacked was top notch power, but he could crack, make no mistake. From a technical perspective, in terms of work-rate, boxing behind the jab, on the move, body-punching, combination-punching, counter-punching, sharp-shooting, etc. he was an ace.
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Old 11-09-2011, 10:50 PM   #7
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Against the right fighter this would hurt him.
What fighters are we talking about, El? Chavez? Duran? Who beats Floyd below 147lbs?
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Old 11-09-2011, 11:18 PM   #8
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

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What fighters are we talking about, El? Chavez? Duran? Who beats Floyd below 147lbs?
From 130-140 I could see quite a few fighters doing so, not all of them the same style, but all possessing attributes to exploit some of those weaknesses.

Duran and Chavez are two. Whitaker is another. Napoles and Ortiz are two more. Canzoneri, Pryor, etc.

Guys like Beau Jack and Sammy Angott might overload him. Guys like Bob Montgomery and Duilio Loi are interesting possible foils on paper. Another is Tippy Larkin. Again, only on paper, though.

In a different manner I'd like to see how Floyd would match up with someone like Laguna, or De Jesus for that matter. Guys like Rodolfo Gonzalez (the original) and Jimmy Carter might prove too steady as complete boxer-punchers. Benitez might beat him at his own game, in fact I'd narrowly favour him to do so.

De La Hoya at 140 would be a hell of an issue for Floyd, no doubt. I'd like to see how Floyd would deal with a young Edwin Rosario, come to think of it. I'd favour him, but I do think Edwin is a fighter Floyd probably wouldn't look to fight. I'd like to see how Floyd would fare against another superb technical boxer in Buddy McGirt at 140.

While we're at it, I would love to see Floyd in with the 1930's version of himself, Kid Chocolate.

I certainly wouldn't outright favour all of these fighters, but I think most of them are capable of turning the trick, if not giving Floyd some real troubles and exploiting some of his tactical weaknesses.
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Old 11-09-2011, 11:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

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Originally Posted by Pedderrs View Post
Alexis Arguello
Julio Cesar Chavez
Joe Louis
Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran

Floyd Mayweather Jr


Just to clarify, I would like weaknesses directly related to how each fighter performs inside the ring. Assuming each of them are in their prime and have prepared the best way imaginable, what are they still not excelling at on fight night? If you only want to address one of the fighters, that's not a problem.
Arguello: His footwork is one of his most frequently cited problems, and while he was more fluid and mobile while younger and at lower weight classes, it was a definite problem at the higher weights in which he fought. Rather mediocre defense meant he was quite hittable, although you had to be willing to trade with him to exploit that. Vulnerable against smooth boxers/movers. Sometimes started slowly, leaving himself vulnerable in 10-12 round fights to be outpointed by someone who racked up the points early.

Chavez: Relatively slow footspeed and average handspeed left him somewhat vulnerable against the fastest boxers. In most cases he was able to nullify this with timing, precision and underrated defense, but speed demons, (especially those who punch with with volume and then move) and defensive wizards are likely to give him problems. Tended to started slow in opening rounds, and when he consciously tried to avoid that, he sometimes finished flat instead. Also, not sure if this is what you're looking for, but Chavez did have trouble in several fights with hand injuries, and back injuries troubled him throughout a good portion of his career.

Louis: Although not quite the plodder some paint him as, he certainly wasn't whizzing around the ring either. He didn't exactly have the problem of starting slow and needing rounds to warm up ala Chavez or Frazier, but it seemed that he tended to get surprised early, and that a disproportionate number of his knockdowns and times of being hurt or wobbled came in the early rounds. (That's just my sense, I haven't picked through his entire record to verify it). Carried his hands low, which an opponent with faster hands could take advantage of.

Whitaker: For all of his genius in his movement, his balance was often unstable, and he suffered a number of flash knockdowns because of it. Tended to get carried away with his showboating and clowning, which sometimes meant that he might clown an opponent with his defense but didn't do enough scoring of his own. Had underrated sharp punching, but also had constant hand problems and had to nurse them. Possessed a style that turned some off, and possibly made some judges look for rounds to give the other guy.

Roberto Duran
: Like many pressure fighters, movers and defensive wizards can be a difficult style for him. Training and focus was inconsistent, but even assuming that he trained vigorously, his body still dealt with the cumulative effects of his lifestyle. Combination of macho attitude and arrogance was sometimes his undoing.

Mayweather Jr.: Tends to rely too much on just a few punches, and is much more stationary at 140 and above than he was earlier in his career. Because of his style he seldom has problems anyway, but comparing him at 130-135 vs 147 shows a stark difference. Low punch output leaves him in danger of being outworked, and he has sometimes shown passivity when being outworked. Generally less effective when the aggressor. Has suffered multiple injuries in different places in the ring, (bad shoulder against Castillo, well known for brittle hands, etc.) which could strike at the wrong time.
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Old 11-11-2011, 10:26 AM   #10
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

Some good answers in this thread
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:15 AM   #11
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

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Originally Posted by El Bujia View Post
That's just not true. He was a fantastic offensive fighter. The only thing he lacked was top notch power, but he could crack, make no mistake. From a technical perspective, in terms of work-rate, boxing behind the jab, on the move, body-punching, combination-punching, counter-punching, sharp-shooting, etc. he was an ace.
Couldn't agree more and that paragraph got me all hot and bothered. If you were a woman I would marry you RIGHT NOW.
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:51 AM   #12
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

Bump.

I'd love to hear more opinions in this thread, or to see what people think of the thoughts that have already been put out there.
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:54 AM   #13
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

So is Pedderrs really Addie?
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:05 AM   #14
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

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Originally Posted by Pedderrs View Post
Alexis Arguello
Julio Cesar Chavez
Joe Louis
Pernell Whitaker
Roberto Duran
Floyd Mayweather Jr

Just to clarify, I would like weaknesses directly related to how each fighter performs inside the ring. Assuming each of them are in their prime and have prepared the best way imaginable, what are they still not excelling at on fight night? If you only want to address one of the fighters, that's not a problem.
Arguello = slow feet.
Chavez = porous defence.
Louis = slow to adapt.
Whitaker = lack of top end power.
Duran = lack of work ethic.
Mayweather= lack of work rate.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:07 AM   #15
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Default Re: Discuss the weaknesses of the following fighters

What the hell did you get banned for, mate?
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