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Old 11-12-2011, 06:07 PM   #31
McGrain
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Monzon is a very accurate puncher and totally unflappable. Greb had problems with accurate, shortarm punches thrown smartly and consistently...in fact people on here have see it as some sort of formula before.

I'm pretty sure Monzon could re-create that.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:09 PM   #32
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Monzon is a very accurate puncher and totally unflappable. Greb had problems with accurate, shortarm punches thrown smartly and consistently...in fact people on here have see it as some sort of formula before.

I'm pretty sure Monzon could re-create that.
I'm sure he could too.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Monzon is a very accurate puncher and totally unflappable. Greb had problems with accurate, shortarm punches thrown smartly and consistently...in fact people on here have see it as some sort of formula before.

I'm pretty sure Monzon could re-create that.
No middleweight beats Harry Greb at his best,by voluminous punching, and as the record shows no one catches up to Greb to ko him in almost 300 bouts, against all sizes, all styles. Monzon would be catnip for the Windmill,as Carlos best punches were long range right crosses. Bigger men tried to tag Greb solidly to ko him and no one succeeded. I would give a faster puncher like Ray Robinson or Marvin Hagler a much better shot against Harry Greb than the straight up slower Monzon. Styles make fights
and a bigger facsimile of Monzon, Gunboat Smith,was demolished by
Harry Greb. As other big men were. Greb by unanimous decision...
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Old 11-13-2011, 03:51 AM   #34
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Greb had problems with accurate, shortarm punches thrown smartly and consistently...in fact people on here have see it as some sort of formula before.
.
Hiya McGrain. Can you give an example of what you mean? Because it seems to me that a prime Greb fought a lot of fighters who threw accurate, shortarm punches and had great success against them.
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:03 AM   #35
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Probably both the best MWs either would face
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:21 AM   #36
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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I'm sure he could too.
I'm sure you are.
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Old 11-13-2011, 06:13 AM   #37
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Monzon is a very accurate puncher and totally unflappable. Greb had problems with accurate, shortarm punches thrown smartly and consistently...in fact people on here have see it as some sort of formula before.

I'm pretty sure Monzon could re-create that.
One thing that concerns me about picking Greb over Monzon ,is not Monzon's jab or his right cross, it is the sometimes overlooked ,short right hands to the chest , heart and wind that Monzon landed , these are sickening punches to absorb and Tunney used the tactic well against Harry
.Monzon was very canny about working the body ,and he put a lot of oomph behind those shots .
I still pick Greb , but Monzon, though not a fighter I find attractive to watch, was undeniably effective,there was a sort of inexorable inevitabilty about his work during a fight.

Greb's pace decides it for me, Monzon is in my top 4 at 160, but fast he was not.
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Old 11-13-2011, 08:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Monzon. After smoking 40 Marlboro
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Old 11-13-2011, 08:44 AM   #39
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
One thing that concerns me about picking Greb over Monzon ,is not Monzon's jab or his right cross, it is the sometimes overlooked ,short right hands to the chest , heart and wind that Monzon landed , these are sickening punches to absorb and Tunney used the tactic well against Harry
.Monzon was very canny about working the body ,and he put a lot of oomph behind those shots .
I still pick Greb , but Monzon, though not a fighter I find attractive to watch, was undeniably effective,there was a sort of inexorable inevitabilty about his work during a fight.

Greb's pace decides it for me, Monzon is in my top 4 at 160, but fast he was not.
Yes Mc, Tunney ,after the first bloodbath loss to Greb, was mentored by Benny Leonard, who told him something like" no one ever hits Greb on the chin,so you must go to the body ". Tunney did that in the next four bouts
that were all disputed "wins". But it must be remembered that after Tunney lost the first fight in 1922, Greb in the 1923,1924,and 1925 bouts was past his peak, shopworn from over 250 bouts and fading rapidly. So this fact, combined with Tunney's 10-15 pound heavier weight,culminating in becoming a heavyweight,was to me the major factor for the bouts becoming closer. In our fantasy matchup between Harry Greb and Carlos Monzon, both in their PRIMES,mid twenties, their weights would be 158-60
and Harry Greb, would surely have outsped, and out volumed the slower Carlos Monzon. I love the description of one of Harry Greb's victims.
"Harry Greb never gave you the ball". Too fast, unhittable, and unorthodox
for the straight up Carlos Monzon , IMO. Cheers...
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Old 11-13-2011, 09:04 AM   #40
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
No middleweight beats Harry Greb at his best.
In all likelyhood, this is not true. No fighter is so much better than his ATG peers that nobody could get him. For me, the clearest light of day in any fight between a best and a rest is at HW, where Ali looks far and away the best fighter, but even he would slip up somewhere.

There is no footage of Greb, so maybe he would be even more exceptional than Ali, it is possible, but the idea that he was literally unbeatable is a stretch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf-Bat View Post
Hiya McGrain. Can you give an example of what you mean? Because it seems to me that a prime Greb fought a lot of fighters who threw accurate, shortarm punches and had great success against them.
Tunney and Loughran.

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Greb's pace decides it for me, Monzon is in my top 4 at 160, but fast he was not.
But nobody - nobody - is beating Greb by outspeeding him. Instead he needs to be out-thought and fought. Looking at the roster of ATG MW's, I think that Monzon has as good a chance as anyone (though Robinson might be my outright pick) due to his apparent tactical nous, totally unflabbale nature and heavy-handed accurate technical punching (you mentioned his one-two yourself).

A great, great way to control a faster fighter is a world-class double-jab. Monzon's is one of the best on film, and he has the right hand behind it.
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Old 11-13-2011, 09:08 AM   #41
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Seeing as Greb beat Tunney in the 1st two meetings I would say he didn't struggle all that much.
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Old 11-13-2011, 09:46 AM   #42
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
In all likelyhood, this is not true. No fighter is so much better than his ATG peers that nobody could get him. For me, the clearest light of day in any fight between a best and a rest is at HW, where Ali looks far and away the best fighter, but even he would slip up somewhere.

There is no footage of Greb, so maybe he would be even more exceptional than Ali, it is possible, but the idea that he was literally unbeatable is a stretch.



Tunney and Loughran.



But nobody - nobody - is beating Greb by outspeeding him. Instead he needs to be out-thought and fought. Looking at the roster of ATG MW's, I think that Monzon has as good a chance as anyone (though Robinson might be my outright pick) due to his apparent tactical nous, totally unflabbale nature and heavy-handed accurate technical punching (you mentioned his one-two yourself).

A great, great way to control a faster fighter is a world-class double-jab. Monzon's is one of the best on film, and he has the right hand behind it.
Mc, Of course on any given night NO ONE is unbeatable. But in our fantasy fights ,we must think of the "probable" or most likely outcome of a fight.
In our fantasy fight I truly think that a "rested" prime Harry Greb,would
most likely whip any middleweight in history,not named Bob Fitzimmons,
[ a middleweight in a heavyweights torso]. What I have read of him all these years from writers who saw him and a slew of great opponents,such as Mickey Walker, Maxie Rosenbloom,trainers as Ray Arcel, Whitey Bimstein, amongst others, and his amazing record against great LH's and up, I must conclude that he was, because of his blend of great speed, stamina, toughness and iron chin, more than a match for any middleweight in history. Of course Mc,any human being who fights almost every 10 days or so, will have an off night due to unrested injuries,train rides from town to town, etc, must have times when they are not at their best, but
at his best,he would be a most likely victor over any middleweight in history, and would probably beat most any LHs too. Not hyperbole on my part, for his astounding record bears me out...
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:33 PM   #43
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Seeing as Greb beat Tunney in the 1st two meetings I would say he didn't struggle all that much.
Not only did he struggle, aside from the first fight it was often a desperate, desperate struggle.
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:40 PM   #44
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by DonBoxer View Post
Monzon. After smoking 40 Marlboro
Versus Greb on 3/4 bottle of Glenlivet
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Old 11-13-2011, 01:41 PM   #45
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
One thing that concerns me about picking Greb over Monzon ,is not Monzon's jab or his right cross, it is the sometimes overlooked ,short right hands to the chest , heart and wind that Monzon landed , these are sickening punches to absorb and Tunney used the tactic well against Harry
.Monzon was very canny about working the body ,and he put a lot of oomph behind those shots .
I still pick Greb , but Monzon, though not a fighter I find attractive to watch, was undeniably effective,there was a sort of inexorable inevitabilty about his work during a fight.

Greb's pace decides it for me, Monzon is in my top 4 at 160, but fast he was not.
A few thoughts ...

Monzon was not as big, strong , fast or hard hitting as Tunney. IN addition, we all know Tunney fought all his bouts against a Greb already past his best ...

I just think Greb had the speed, stamina, chin and strength to outpoint Carlos ... a great match up but I favor Greb ..
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