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Old 11-13-2011, 04:32 PM   #46
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by he grant View Post
A few thoughts ...

Monzon was not as big, strong , fast or hard hitting as Tunney. IN addition, we all know Tunney fought all his bouts against a Greb already past his best ...

I just think Greb had the speed, stamina, chin and strength to outpoint Carlos ... a great match up but I favor Greb ..
That's two of us then
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:41 PM   #47
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Probably both the best MWs either would face
It is a testiment to Grebs level of opposition, that this could be argued.

You could make a case that Greb met a better opponent in Mickey Walker.
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:51 PM   #48
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Versus Greb on 3/4 bottle of Glenlivet
What a pair .
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:06 PM   #49
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Not only did he struggle, aside from the first fight it was often a desperate, desperate struggle.
The second fight sounds like a Greb win. And Greb dwindled as the series went on and Tunney improved.

Take the Greb of the first fight then
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:09 PM   #50
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Yeah, I think so too, but the fact that he lost on the official cards reveals the struggle - and it was mostly downhill from there.

None of this is really that relevant IMO, but as it's come up.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:31 PM   #51
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Greb dominated the series vs Loughran, Tommy (like Tunney) only beginning to show an edge in their latter fights when Greb was showing signs of slippage. Either way Greb won 4 bouts vs Loughran (if memory serves) and should be considered 2-2-1 vs. Tunney, though an argument can be made that he was 3-2 vs Gene.

But overall I don't really see what Monzon has in common with either Loughran or Tunney or how they can be used as a measuring stick of how the slower, less mobile Monzon would do. Monzon doesn't appear to me to have anything new to show Greb, who was vastly more experienced against a much wider array of styles, sizes, speeds, skill sets and power levels. But that's just me
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:31 PM   #52
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yeah, I think so too, but the fact that he lost on the official cards reveals the struggle - and it was mostly downhill from there.

None of this is really that relevant IMO, but as it's come up.
But what of two papers only giving Tunney a single round? Difficult? Of course. But if we're picking a Greb to take on Monzon we'll take him from earlier, at 160, and in a single fight Monzon doesn't have the opportunity to adjust over a series as Tunney did.

I go for Monzon on footage-based decision but on paper, the Argie doesn't find his range and rhythm down the stretch and Greb slaps him up.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:33 PM   #53
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Yeah, or what about the NY papers that awarded the fight to Tunney?

I think Greb won that second fight, and I hope Klompton can provide the final word on the matter (if he ever publishes...).
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:39 PM   #54
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Yeah, or what about the NY papers that awarded the fight to Tunney?

I think Greb won that second fight, and I hope Klompton can provide the final word on the matter (if he ever publishes...).


He did, mon ami. Here it is:

KLOMPTON: All of these decisions were rendered by papers directly from ringside, not wire reports:

NY Morning Telegraph: Greb won 10 of 15 rounds
NY Evening Mail: "Decision depriving Greb of LHW Crown Calls for Sweeping Inquiry"
Newark Star Eagle: Gave Tunney only the 14th round
Newark Evening News: Greb gave Tunney as bad a beating as the first fight, it was one of the worst decisions handed out since the Walker Law
Jersey Journal: The only round Tunney won decisively was the 14th.
Standard Union:After weird decision Tunney is LHW Champion: Judges decide against Greb who had lead on points
NY Sun: Gave Tunney the fight because Tunney scored more points yet then states that Greb scored more points but that the writer took points away because Greb clinched too often...
The NY Evening Telegram: Gave the fight to Tunney
NY American: gave it to Tunney
NY Times: gave it to Tunney
NY Evening World: Scored it a Draw and added that Tunney did not deserve the victory despite the writer stating he was a great admirer of Tunneys
NY Tribune: called it a draw stating the decision met with much disapproval, writing for the same paper Grantland Rice called it a poor decision
NY Herald: Gave it to Greb, another writer for the paper called it a draw
Evening Journal: Gave it to Greb
Evening Mail: Gave it to Greb
Philly Ledger: Gave it to Greb
NY Daily News: Stated a draw would have been a better decision.
Pittsburgh Post: Gave Tunney only two rounds.
Pittsburgh Gazette Times: Gave it to Greb
Pittsburgh Press: Gave it Greb

Bill Muldoon chairman of the NYSAC stated it was a bad decision.

Thats 4 votes for Tunney, 15 votes for Greb, and 4 votes for a draw. So in essence 19 of 23 ringside opinions listed above believed Greb should not have left the ring without his crown. Thats pretty overwhelming particularly considering the strong words used in most of those articles saying things like "robbery" and calling for an investigation, etc. Lets also keep in mind that this was Tunney's hometown and the majority of those papers were hometown papers for Tunney.

Most reports state that when the decision was announced the audience sat stunned and a low murmur was heard throughout, confused by the decision. This was evident even among sections rooting for Tunney. It wasnt until after Greb left the ring and Tunney started out of the ring that he was given his ovation and the paper states this was given to him by his fans, not the entire audience, many of which hooted, hissed, and shouted robbery.

Here is a direct quote from Tunney on the decision: "Realizing there was some justice in Greb's claim of a bad decision, I offered him a return engagement." -Gene Tunney, A Man Must Fight, P. 162

Tunney is being a bit generous here about "giving" Greb a rematch. Greb went to the NYSAC the following day and filed a formal challenge binding it with a substantial foreit.

I also have the poll that Cavanaugh is referring to and either he is lying or is confused because of the people polled 5 gave the fight to Greb, 3 gave it to Tunney, and 4 voted it a draw. So thats some nice spin but once again even by Cavanaughs flawed poll you can see that 9 out of 12 people polled thought Greb should have left with his title.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:47 PM   #55
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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But overall I don't really see what Monzon has in common with either Loughran or Tunney or how they can be used as a measuring stick of how the slower, less mobile Monzon would do. Monzon doesn't appear to me to have anything new to show Greb, who was vastly more experienced against a much wider array of styles, sizes, speeds, skill sets and power levels. But that's just me
What Monzon does or doesn't have in common with Loughran and Tunney never was the point and their names were only mentioned after you asked me to name the fighters who used this strategy, but I'll get to it.

Monzon fought intelligently every time he stepped into the ring and won every time he stepped into the ring as a champion. What this tells me is he is a fighter that has no issues adapting his tactics and boxing to suit the styles in front of him. Monzon isn't as mobile as Loughran or the Tunney that fought Dempsey, but I don't see that as relevant at all. How did Loughran's mobility help him versus the much faster Greb? It didn't. And how did Tunney's mobility serve in their shoot-outs? It didn't. Trying to box-move Greb wouldn't work I don't think, and nobody ever made it work to my knowledge.

He needs to be physically dominated by a much bigger man or fought. Mobility is not an issue to me at all.

Now what Tunney and Loughran had in common were they were both exceptional jab fighters and in Tunney's case especially but also with Loughran, there is a superb right hand coming behind it. You say that Monzon "wouldn't show Greb anything new" - this is oft repeated and I never really understand why, but here I do not think it is even true. Boxing has changed since 1920 and offence is taught and deployed now almost exclusively off these two punches. I'm happy to call Monzon's one-two one of the best i've seen. They are also the two critical punches in controlling speedsters, one, the jab, the shortest punch to throw, the easiest to imbue the slower fighter with equalising speed. Behind it, the combination punch, the harder shot.

Monzon was un-erringly accurate and damaging. Speed never troubled him at all on film for some of the reasons above. If Tunney and Loughran could both successfully exact some measure of control over Greb with short direct punches, I think Monzon certainly could, in fact I think he'd have great success. Throw in Monzon's unflappable nature and I think you have a superb recipe for a Greb-fix.

Monzon is unquestionably one of the greatest filmed MW's in history and there are many that will tell you he is the best. However incredible Greb was, I don't see there being no case here. If Greb was so much better than the very best on film he represents a statistical anomaly never equalled in any other sport - if Greb is better it won't be by much, is what that boils down to. He is also three inches smaller with a much shorter reach than the best technical stalker he'd ever have faced at the weight...interesting to say the very least.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:47 PM   #56
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yeah, or what about the NY papers that awarded the fight to Tunney?

I think Greb won that second fight, and I hope Klompton can provide the final word on the matter (if he ever publishes...).
True. I was using Klomptons research with what I know from 'The Fearless Harry Greb'....lo and behold Surf-Bat has posted it
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:50 PM   #57
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

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Originally Posted by Surf-Bat View Post
[b][u]Thats 4 votes for Tunney, 15 votes for Greb, and 4 votes for a draw.
Yes, I've seen his list before and it looks exhaustive to me...I would point out though that one third of ringsiders according to Klompton did not think that Greb won the fight.

Hence, the fight can legitimately be labelled "a struggle."
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:51 PM   #58
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Nice breakdown McGrain.

But considering what Greb did, I would say there's every possibility he was an anomaly. Certainly in terms of style, had An incredible blend of attributes that might throw the measured dominance of Monzon off.

Definitely an interesting clash of styles though. Probably the two guys you'd pick to beat the other, on paper.
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Old 11-13-2011, 06:02 PM   #59
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Yeah, Greb could definitely win this fight...he might even be a favourite, I don't know...but freaks like that, they don't happen. Flea Man, I want you to imagine Robinson had never been filmed. Imagine the weight of testimony that exists to his greatness (dozens of Burts!), his paper resume and the newspaper reports of the time...then film surfaces.

Do you think you would be surprised to see that Robinson at best looks slightly better than Duran, Leonard, Jones (or whoever)? Don't you think you'd be expecting something more?

The only "anomalies" that exist in boxing are Greb and maybe Barbados Joe...both fighters who exist before film.

Greb may be the greatest fighter to ever have lived, he really might be, but he was still just a human male boxer, and quite possibly one that was not quite as good as Robinson - or Monzon.
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Old 11-13-2011, 06:16 PM   #60
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Default Re: Harry Greb v Carlos Monzon

Maybe Robbo is a bad choice mate. I'd be absolutely chuffed if the footage we have of him surfaced I imagine, the descriptions of him are hardly hyperbolic considering how incredible he is.

With Greb, it's his style that seems so incomprehensible. The worry is that he looks fairly conventional when the footage surfaces (hypothetical! Of course there's no chance we'll ever witness the man in action) which is why it's easy to go overboard on him.

But if he lived up to the hype and appeared on that level that you mentioned, I'd also consider the praise heaped on him as entirely fair. Robinson, Duran and Jones are 3 fighters that are (gun to my head) in the top 10 fighters I've seen on film. If Greb was slightly better than those guys, hes living up to the accounts of the time. I hope I haven't missed your point here

As I say, it's because his style sounds so incomprehensible that it's not hard to favour him over most as a kinetic, nails force of nature. I see your point entirely, which is exactly why I stressed on paper.
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