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Old 11-14-2011, 09:11 AM   #1
NorthernCross
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Default Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

Just got this off a website. If anyone has better-sourced material, please let me know.

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

A discourse on scoring assumes that any fight under discussion has completed its allotted rounds (either four, six, eight, ten, or twelve), or, in accord with the rules of the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], has gone at least four rounds if the fight is stopped because of a cut caused by an accidental headbutt. To the scoring, then.

Clean Punching


A clean punch is one that lands on a scoring area (face or side of head, not including the back of the head; the front and sides of the torso) with the knuckle portion of the glove. In amateur boxing, the scoring portion of the glove is white. Though a professional glove lacks such markings, the scoring portion of the glove is basically the same.
Clean punches will land flush, not glancing or partially blocked by one's opponent. "Slapping" or "backhanding" is not allowed.

Effective Aggressiveness


Effective aggression is demonstrated when a fighter presses forward, and in doing so, scores more clean punches, or more damaging blows, than his opponent. If a boxer is a particularly hard puncher, even blows that are not landed particularly clean, but obviously affect his opponent, are given scoring weight.

Ring Generalship


The ability to control the pace and style of a fight is ring generalship. For instance, a high volume-punching brawler will attempt to force a "stick and move" boxer into a slugfest. Conversely, the pure boxer will attempt to slow the pace of the fight by keeping his opponent at the end of his jab and use angles and feints in order to set up his heavier punches.
It is imperative that professional judges comprehend each fighter's respective style in order to understand who is controlling the action and demonstrating superior ring generalship.

Defense


Probably the most ignored, if not maligned, of the four judging criteria is defense. There have been boxers who were such defensive wizards, such as Willie Pep, or Pernell Whitaker, that it was virtually impossible for judges not to recognize their skill. It is said that Pep once won a round against Jackie Graves in 1946 without landing a single punch. In truth, the featherweight Pep landed a few jabs during that round, but such a story is remarkable only because it is so rare, as defense is so poorly appreciated.
Defense is the ability to avoid punshment. A boxer with greater reach than his opponent may stay on the outside and use his footwork to avoid punches--a style often frowned on by judges. One might stay inside and slip punches. Another option is to block an opponent's punches with one's gloves, arms and shoulders, or the highly skilled fighter may choose to use a combination of defensive techniques, depending on the situation.


Sources for this article:
"Harold Lederman on Scoring" Lederman, Harold; hbo.com/boxing/cmp/scoring.shtml
"You be the Boxing Judge" Kaczmarek, Tom; Dorrance Publishing Co., 1996
__________

Still haven't re-watched the fight, which I'll do when I get back home. Clearly, Pac was the more aggressive fighter in his last fight, and an argument can be made that JMM did more to control the pace. IIRC, Pac landed a greater volume of "clean" punches, whereas I hear a lot of people say that the punches that JMM landed were "cleaner". Admittedly, I don't know what has more scoring weight between "greater number of clean" vs. "cleaner".

Finally, JMM seemed to be a better defender in the fight, which is a stylistic given when he fights Pac. That said, even though Pac missed a lot of punches, it apears to me based on the rules above that the mere existence of missing punches is not what gives scoring weight to an opponent. Rather, scoring based on defense is about actually making the other guy miss. When I re-wetch the fight, I'm going to look more closely at which punches that Pac missed were actual misses as a result of JMM's actions. Of course, I'll also look at what Pac did to make JMM miss his punches.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:14 AM   #2
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

Clean Punching, Ring Generalship, and Defense.

^^^ Marquez was the superior one in those departments.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

Note the sub heading, the key word being "effective" when being aggressive.

Clean Punching - Marquez
Effective Aggression - Marquez
Ring Generalship - Marquez
Defence - Marquez

Were is the argument for Pacquiao winning a single round if it was scored according to this?
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:17 AM   #4
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunk87 View Post
Note the sub heading, the key word being "effective" when being aggressive.

Clean Punching - Marquez
Effective Aggression - Marquez
Ring Generalship - Marquez
Defence - Marquez

Were is the argument for Pacquiao winning a single round if it was scored according to this?
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunk87 View Post
Note the sub heading, the key word being "effective" when being aggressive.

Clean Punching - Marquez
Effective Aggression - Marquez
Ring Generalship - Marquez
Defence - Marquez

Were is the argument for Pacquiao winning a single round if it was scored according to this?
Like I said, I need to re-watch the fight. I found it interesting though that based on these criteria, even partially blocked punches have scoring weight if they're thrown by the aggressor and have "an obvious affect." Looking at JMM's face after the fight, I'd say this is something I have to look at more closely as well.

Also, IIRC, it was Pac who was deciding when there was any engagement between the two, since JMM was repeatedly stepping back waiting for Pac to make his decisions on when to engage. That suggests that to an extent, Pac was dictating the pace. But again, I have to look at that more closely.

I already discussed my thoughts on the other two criteria.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:28 AM   #6
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

of the four u can make an argument really only one for pacman.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:31 AM   #7
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

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Originally Posted by boxingfanneato View Post
of the four u can make an argument really only one for pacman.
That said, are these 4 elements equally weighted? IIRC, the final scores of every close decision fight I've ever watched suggest that they are not, and it's u to the judges to decide what's more important.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:32 AM   #8
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernCross View Post
Like I said, I need to re-watch the fight. I found it interesting though that based on these criteria, even partially blocked punches have scoring weight if they're thrown by the aggressor and have "an obvious affect." Looking at JMM's face after the fight, I'd say this is something I have to look at more closely as well.

Also, IIRC, it was Pac who was deciding when there was any engagement between the two, since JMM was repeatedly stepping back waiting for Pac to make his decisions on when to engage. That suggests that to an extent, Pac was dictating the pace. But again, I have to look at that more closely.

I already discussed my thoughts on the other two criteria.
Going into explaining why your points were slightly off the mark was going to be tedious enough... then when you mentioned facial damage as being an indicator you lost all credibility and I can't be bothered. No offence.

The second paragraph you are again misguided so to say in your understanding.

I suggest you do watch the fight again. Do some research into counter punching... you will then understand.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:38 AM   #9
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

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Going into explaining why your points were slightly off the mark was going to be tedious enough... then when you mentioned facial damage as being an indicator you lost all credibility and I can't be bothered. No offence.

The second paragraph you are again misguided so to say in your understanding.

I suggest you do watch the fight again. Do some research into counter punching... you will then understand.
On my first point, never said that the appearance on JMM's face was the final determinant of what effective aggession is. Of course, there are a lot of medical and biological factors involved that have that have very little to do with effectiveness in the ring that can cause JMM's face to look the way it did after the fight. Nonetheless, I think it's perfectly reasonable for me to say that this warrants a closer look.

On my second point, I may be "misguided" as you say. By all means, educate me because I'm always willing to learn more about the sport. That said, I haven't made up my mind on this particular issue either, and I was merely suggesting an avenue of inquiry that I can explore when re-watching the fight.

Finally, I didn't post this thread to establish my creds. I'm just a casual fan, and this is my way of learning the sport.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:38 AM   #10
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

Is it also correct when scoring a fight, that you first score it based on Clean Punching -
Only if its even would you base it on Effective Aggression - Then ony if that is even do you consider Ring Generalship - Then finally if that is also even you go off Defence -

Thats what i've always beieved. Is this correct?
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:43 AM   #11
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernCross View Post
Like I said, I need to re-watch the fight. I found it interesting though that based on these criteria, even partially blocked punches have scoring weight if they're thrown by the aggressor and have "an obvious affect." Looking at JMM's face after the fight, I'd say this is something I have to look at more closely as well.

Also, IIRC, it was Pac who was deciding when there was any engagement between the two, since JMM was repeatedly stepping back waiting for Pac to make his decisions on when to engage. That suggests that to an extent, Pac was dictating the pace. But again, I have to look at that more closely.

I already discussed my thoughts on the other two criteria.
Absolutely wrong, you can still step back and be dominant, it's called counter punching. If this is the style that a fighter adopts in a fight, then judges need to take that in to account. How well is he fighting to his style and being successful at it. In this case, he fought predominantly as a counter puncher and met the scoring criteria in doing so. Pac initiated attacks? well not all the time, and when he did, he was sloppy, often hitting air, or Marquez using superior footwork to get away and counter. That's good defence and it's part of the scoring criteria.

Not quite sure what the confusion is. Question is, In what way was Pacquiao the boss in there? in no way did he land the cleaner blows, in no way did he control marquez, in no way did he show better defense. Based on all this, its abso****inglutely clear who won the fight.

Boxing fans amaze me, and are spouting phoneybox numbers, or saying well pac came forward, so ****ing what!! Marquez mixed it up, got in and out of range, even hit pac with right hand leads, and countered brilliantly when Pac lunged in.

Just can't get my head round these so called boxing fans. MMA fans even understand the scoring criteria, as they use the same Athletic commission rules, and 10 point system as boxing. They score the same way, replace ring control with octagon control but they get it.

Boxing fans on the other hand...............
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAnthony View Post
Is it also correct when scoring a fight, that you first score it based on Clean Punching -
Only if its even would you base it on Effective Aggression - Then ony if that is even do you consider Ring Generalship - Then finally if that is also even you go off Defence -

Thats what i've always beieved. Is this correct?
I believe the 4 elements mentioned above can play off each other and each can surely have an influence the others. But I don't believe, based on this article, that the 4 elements are dependent on each other that effectiveness in one is necessary for the effectiveness of another.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:56 AM   #13
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

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Originally Posted by rainmaker View Post
Absolutely wrong, you can still step back and be dominant, it's called counter punching. If this is the style that a fighter adopts in a fight, then judges need to take that in to account. How well is he fighting to his style and being successful at it. In this case, he fought predominantly as a counter puncher and met the scoring criteria in doing so. Pac initiated attacks? well not all the time, and when he did, he was sloppy, often hitting air, or Marquez using superior footwork to get away and counter. That's good defence and it's part of the scoring criteria.

Not quite sure what the confusion is. Question is, In what way was Pacquiao the boss in there? in no way did he land the cleaner blows, in no way did he control marquez, in no way did he show better defense. Based on all this, its abso****inglutely clear who won the fight.

Boxing fans amaze me, and are spouting phoneybox numbers, or saying well pac came forward, so ****ing what!! Marquez mixed it up, got in and out of range, even hit pac with right hand leads, and countered brilliantly when Pac lunged in.

Just can't get my head round these so called boxing fans. MMA fans even understand the scoring criteria, as they use the same Athletic commission rules, and 10 point system as boxing. They score the same way, replace ring control with octagon control but they get it.

Boxing fans on the other hand...............
I'm going to ignore the ad hominem facets of your post and address your substance, which is more constructive.

If judges have to take into account JMM's style when scoring, wouldn't they also have to take into account Pac's style? It's well known that Pac is a carpet-bombing slugger, and IIRC there was not much JMM did to stop him from doing that. The key issue, as you mentioned, is whether Pac was successful in his "sloppy" style.

Also, you mention the issue of the "cleaner" shots. This is something I'd like clarification on. From what I recall on first viewing, Pac landed more of the "clean" shots, while many other people say that JMM's shots were "cleaner". Before I re-watch the fight, I want to determine which of the two ("cleaner" vs. "greater number of clean") has greater scoring weight.
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:01 AM   #14
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

@Northern


Clean Punching


This should need to explanation I assume? Clearly for Marquez here.



Effective Aggressiveness


The critical word for me here is "effective", Manny was not and it ties in with JMM's control of the ring (the next point). He was moving forward but he was being led by JMM and not closing off the ring. When he went to tee off on a punch JMM was stepping off and any glancing blow was literally rendered ineffective (as well as being met by counters). Pac was coming forward but the epitome of mindless aggression rather than effective aggression.

Also moving backwards doesn't mean the fighter is not aggressive, JMM was effective at picking the time to get his shots of first.


Ring Generalship


As you might have heard Pac fans were commenting him not being his usually fast paced busy self. This wasn't for any other reason than JmM control over the pace f the fight - like I said in the first two points - any time Manny came forward he was slipped and countered. When you take a few right hands you are not so keen on coming forward. JMM was in complete control of the ring, holding the centre has nothing to do with it here. The critical element being the reference to each fighters style, JMM applied his counter punching style more effectively than Pac applied his aggressive style.



Defense


I assume this needs no explanation either.
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:13 AM   #15
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Default Re: Scoring rules, and some of my thoughts

@Dunk

Re: Clean punches, I've been working off the presumption that Compubox punches landed = clean punches with scoring weight. OTOH, a lot of people are saying that JMM's punches were "cleaner". So what has more scoring weight, quality or quantity of clean punches?
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