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Old 12-23-2007, 06:13 PM   #46
NickHudson
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Default Re: Holmes or Lewis?

Wod-meister!

Agreed we don't know for sure, but in a court of law a 'reasonable man' could be forgiven for saying that an AIDS patient and a man coming off two consecutive losses are not necessarily prime.

I put it to you that '78 Norton is better than anyone Lewis faced, and the 2 versions of Shavers Holmes faced is a harder hitter than any man Lewis faced.
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:26 PM   #47
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lewis
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:30 PM   #48
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
Wod-meister!

Agreed we don't know for sure, but in a court of law a 'reasonable man' could be forgiven for saying that an AIDS patient and a man coming off two consecutive losses are not necessarily prime.
A reasonable response.

Quote:
I put it to you that '78 Norton is better than anyone Lewis faced, and the 2 versions of Shavers Holmes faced is a harder hitter than any man Lewis faced.
I agree with your ascertion that Shavers hit harder than anyone Lewis faced. Your claim about Norton being better than anyone Lewis fought is questionable, but I'll accept it as your opinion.
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:37 PM   #49
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Default Re: Holmes or Lewis?

Interested to hear which version of which man Lewis faced, who you feel was capable of 15 fast paced rounds, showing the level of offensive and defensive skill Norton showed in '78?

[quote=Woddy]
Quote:


A reasonable response.



I agree with your ascertion that Shavers hit harder than anyone Lewis faced. Your claim about Norton being better than anyone Lewis fought is questionable, but I'll accept it as your opinion.
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:43 PM   #50
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[quote=NickHudson]Interested to hear which version of which man Lewis faced, who you feel was capable of 15 fast paced rounds, showing the level of offensive and defensive skill Norton showed in '78?

Although I think a 36 year old Holyfield was well past his prime in 1998, I think he may have been better than a 35 year old Norton in 1978. Holyfield was coming off of some big wins over Tyson, while Norton had arguably been gifted a decision against Young. Holyfield would follow up by giving Lewis a fight in their rematch, whereas Norton would follow up by losing in one round to an equally aged Shavers.

You be the judge as to who you think was better at that point in their careers, but frankly I think a 1998 Holyfield could have gone 15 rounds with a 1978 Holmes, and made him work a bit for the victory.
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Old 12-23-2007, 06:55 PM   #51
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Default Re: Holmes or Lewis?

At this point we have to agree to disagree. Holyfield had stamina problems throughout his career, and they worsened as he got older.

When Holyfield was prime and Holmes ancient, Holmes was able to confuse him.

A prime Holmes would have whitewashed him.

[quote=Woddy]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
Interested to hear which version of which man Lewis faced, who you feel was capable of 15 fast paced rounds, showing the level of offensive and defensive skill Norton showed in '78?

Although I think a 36 year old Holyfield was well past his prime in 1998, I think he may have been better than a 35 year old Norton in 1978. Holyfield was coming off of some big wins over Tyson, while Norton had arguably been gifted a decision against Young. Holyfield would follow up by giving Lewis a fight in their rematch, whereas Norton would follow up by losing in one round to an equally aged Shavers.

You be the judge as to who you think was better at that point in their careers, but frankly I think a 1998 Holyfield could have gone 15 rounds with a 1978 Holmes, and made him work a bit for the victory.
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:39 PM   #52
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickHudson
At this point we have to agree to disagree. Holyfield had stamina problems throughout his career, and they worsened as he got older.

When Holyfield was prime and Holmes ancient, Holmes was able to confuse him.

A prime Holmes would have whitewashed him.
I disagree that Holyfield had any sifnificant stamina problems. He showed on numerous occasions througout his career that he could go the distance in the heat of heavy warfare, and even win under such circumstances. The fact that he went 24 rounds with a peak Lewis was confirmation of this fact. As for Holmes going the distance with a peak Holyfield, he lost nearly every round of that fight, and Evander was most certainly not out for blood that evening. I tend to think that if he wanted to, he could have KOd Holmes in 1992. Lastly, if Shavers of all people could take Holmes the distance despite having REAL stamina issues, then I doubt Holyfield would have a problem, even in his late thirties.
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Old 12-23-2007, 07:50 PM   #53
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[quote=Woddy]
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I disagree that Holyfield had any sifnificant stamina problems. He showed on numerous occasions througout his career that he could go the distance in the heat of heavy warfare, and even win under such circumstances. The fact that he went 24 rounds with a peak Lewis was confirmation of this fact. As for Holmes going the distance with a peak Holyfield, he lost nearly every round of that fight, and Evander was most certainly not out for blood that evening. I tend to think that if he wanted to, he could have KOd Holmes in 1992. Lastly, if Shavers of all people could take Holmes the distance despite having REAL stamina issues, then I doubt Holyfield would have a problem, even in his late thirties.
No he didn't. Ledderman scored it 7-5 Holyfield. I had it the same. Larry puzzeled Holyfield, and he even slipped a punch and Holyfield fell looking foolish.
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Old 12-24-2007, 06:27 AM   #54
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[quote=Bill1234]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woddy

No he didn't. Ledderman scored it 7-5 Holyfield. I had it the same. Larry puzzeled Holyfield, and he even slipped a punch and Holyfield fell looking foolish.
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:34 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakman
Holmes. And it's not even close. Lewis is very overrated. You never saw Larry Holmes taken out early by fighters like Rahman or McCall.

He'd have ducked them anyway.
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:42 AM   #56
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[quote=Bill1234]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woddy

No he didn't. Ledderman scored it 7-5 Holyfield. I had it the same. Larry puzzeled Holyfield, and he even slipped a punch and Holyfield fell looking foolish.

It's funny how you seem to score the same at the commentator when it's the closest card around (everyone else had it 116-112/ 117-111 ish), yet you also score the same as the judge that gives Larry most rounds in fights he wins. I AM Legend does the same. Then again, you're both only nine years old, so it's probably expected.



PS. It's hardly surprising it was closer than expected, Evander could have hardly been motivated by such a nothing fight that had as much pre-fight buzz as Bowe-Ferguson. Well, there wasn't much to sell:

"HEY, REMEMBER THAT GUY WHO USED TO BE CHAMP, YEAH FOLKS, THE ONE NOBODY COULD STAND THE SIGHT OF...WELL, HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE'S BACK!"
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Old 12-24-2007, 07:53 AM   #57
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Default Re: Holmes or Lewis?

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
The other guys had their own versions of the alpha titles, and King wasn't about to give up millions by letting Holmes unify, and Larry wasn't willing to go through Kings crap for any longer anyway. He didn't use King if he didn't have to.


King seemed to have no objections in allowing Tyson to unify. Funny that Larry lambasted Don and said he didn't want anything to do with King (when all's Don asked would he finally fight his mandatory). Yet after Page was fighting for another belt, Larry agreed to fight for King in his bouts with Smith and Bey.
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Old 12-24-2007, 08:27 AM   #58
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Default Re: Holmes or Lewis?

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
King seemed to have no objections in allowing Tyson to unify. Funny that Larry lambasted Don and said he didn't want anything to do with King (when all's Don asked would he finally fight his mandatory). Yet after Page was fighting for another belt, Larry agreed to fight for King in his bouts with Smith and Bey.
People chuckle, but Page really was the one guy Holmes was a bit leery of, more from knowing he was getting a bit over the hill and that Page was one guy who could really rise on the rare occasion. Page also hated him so just might have come in 100% focused. Larry HATED the thought of possibly losing the the at the time supposed heir apparent and appeasing his many critics and detractors. He especially hated the thought as he had got $10 000 against Cooney and was getting far less vs Page. Holmes knew Page would be far tougher at that stage if he came in firing, and he really did look to have turned the corner vs Snipes. Great shape, perfect tactics and good focus against an awkward foe. Of course he had also already told Witherspoon he wasn't getting no rematch, so it's not as if Page was alone. As he publically stated, he wanted to cruise to retirement and would fight easier foes as he thought he had earnt that distinction.
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:19 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
King seemed to have no objections in allowing Tyson to unify. Funny that Larry lambasted Don and said he didn't want anything to do with King (when all's Don asked would he finally fight his mandatory). Yet after Page was fighting for another belt, Larry agreed to fight for King in his bouts with Smith and Bey.
Tyson was a huge draw though. He could make just as much money with having Tyson as he could with all of the other guys as champ. The fact of it is, Tyson was one of the, if not the most exciting fighter of all time. Even non-boxing fans would watch him fight just because he was so exciting.

Do you blame Larry for refusing to deal with King when King threatened to have Larry's legs broken? Or how about being cheated out of your money for the past 7-8 years? If Larry went along with King eventually he'd have been screwed over as Tyson.
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:23 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
People chuckle, but Page really was the one guy Holmes was a bit leery of, more from knowing he was getting a bit over the hill and that Page was one guy who could really rise on the rare occasion. Page also hated him so just might have come in 100% focused. Larry HATED the thought of possibly losing the the at the time supposed heir apparent and appeasing his many critics and detractors. He especially hated the thought as he had got $10 000 against Cooney and was getting far less vs Page. Holmes knew Page would be far tougher at that stage if he came in firing, and he really did look to have turned the corner vs Snipes. Great shape, perfect tactics and good focus against an awkward foe. Of course he had also already told Witherspoon he wasn't getting no rematch, so it's not as if Page was alone. As he publically stated, he wanted to cruise to retirement and would fight easier foes as he thought he had earnt that distinction.
Larry was a buisness man. He got 5 mill for fighting Frazier and Frank, when he would have gotten around 3.8 mill for Page. If you are looking to make money, not legacy, what would you do? Also, I think we all know people would still piss and moan about Larry's comp even if he did fight and beat Page, Thomas, Coetzee, and Dokes.
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