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Old 11-29-2011, 11:00 AM   #1
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Default Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

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Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!


By Daniel Vano


‘And Glen Trowbridge scores the fight 116-112 to the winner by Majority Decision. And still WBO Welterweight champion, Manny ‘Pacman’ Pacquiaoooooooooo’. Over the years we have grown accustom to both the trademark words of Michael Buffer, as well as the sight of Manny Pacquiao with his arms aloft after being announced the winner. And November 12th was no different. Many experts agreed that a ‘Pacquiao by decision’ would be the best bet. While Marquez had been hurt by the Filipino dynamo in their two previous encounters, the Mexican warrior had shown tremendous grit and determination to pull through and battle until the end. Even with Marquez stepping up to Welterweight for the first time since being dominated by Floyd Mayweather back in 2009, it was only Freddie Roach and a handful of others predicting a blowout.


And once again the experts had it spot on. Manny Pacquiao was indeed announced the winner by decision. Unfortunately, I couldn’t watch the fight live, but I managed to wake up at half five in the morning to follow a round-by-round assessment via Twitter. When I awoke, I was astonished. We were already in round 8, and most had only given the pound for pound champion two or three rounds. As the minutes and rounds rolled by, the online boxing community was going into overdrive. ‘Another round to Marquez, Pacquiao is being outclassed’ one observer said. Dan Rafael had it 6-5 to Pacquiao going into the final round. But he was the only one.

Suddenly I receive a text message off a friend. ‘What the f***! Can you believe that!?!? I’m disgusted! Sick to the bone, totally gutted.’ I didn’t need to be told the result. My friend, who is a knowledgeable boxing fan in his own right, is a massive fan of Mexican fighters. Salvador Sanchez, Marquez, Barrera and Morales all make up his favourite all time fighters list. Could I trust his opinion to be totally unbiased? Perhaps not. I’d have to watch this for myself.


The following afternoon, I sat in anticipation as Marquez walked towards the ring. The huge Mexican crowd in the MGM Grand were behind their hero. Make no mistake; however, I was watching this as a massive Pacquiao fan. Ever since he blew away Marco Antonio Barrera, Pacquiao had been one of my favourite fighters. He had defeated Morales twice, handed out a one-sided beat down to David Diaz, and, when cherry picked by the Golden Boy himself, he blew away Oscar De La Hoya in 8 rounds to receive the fame he deserved. Since then, he has destroyed Ricky Hatton in 2 pulsating rounds, beat up Miguel Cotto, and forced Antonio Margarito to have an operation on a broken orbital bone, while Pacquiao sang out of tune on stage.


After the first two rounds, I couldn’t understand the controversy. Pacquiao, while not looking his explosive best, had done enough to take them on my card. But then came the change. Marquez’s footwork began to take hold, and he started to make Pacquiao leap in with his shots, countering the champion seemingly at will. While Pacquiao was perhaps landing more punches, the classier work in the 3rd, 4th and 5th rounds certainly came from the Mexican. While Pacquiao’s best round of the fight was the 6th, Marquez picked it up in the 7th, 8th and 9th, landing beautiful uppercuts and counter rights in the process. After the 10th, which I scored to Pacquiao, I had it 6 rounds to 4 and, with Marquez taking the 11th and Pacquiao the 12th; I had it 115-113 Marquez. While this scorecard may seem close, the fight itself wasn’t. Pacquiao scrapped by winning his rounds, many of which could feasibly be scored to Marquez, whereas the Mexican won his rounds big. The only clear-cut rounds for Pacquiao from where I was sitting were the 1st, 6th and 12th. It is not inconceivable that Juan Manuel Marquez took the rest.


After the fight and the resulting controversy, I decided to re-watch the pair’s previous encounters to find out why Pacquiao has so much trouble with Marquez.


The first reason is quiet simple. Manny Pacquiao, for all his talents, has major problems with Juan Manuel Marquez’s counterpunching style. When the two meet head on in the ring, Pacquiao often gets the better of proceedings. This is highlighted particularly well in their first fight back in 2004. In the first round Marquez raced to the centre of the ring eager to fight Pacquiao head on to prove he was the stronger man. Barely 90 seconds had passed before Pacquiao had the Mexican on his backside after a trademark straight left found the target. While Marquez didn’t appear to be greatly hurt, Pacquiao rushed in with 4 straight lefts, the last of which put Marquez down for a second time. The Mexican rose to his feet once more but didn’t stay there for long, another Pacquiao left sent him scrambling on the ropes, and, with Manny hitting Marquez on the way down, it looked all over. Marquez did indeed survive the first round onslaught but, with a broken nose and already four points behind on the cards, it was obvious a change was needed. This change came in the third round. Marquez began to stand out of range of Pacquiao’s dangerous bombs, forcing Manny to leap in with shots. Marquez, a great counterpuncher in his own right, began picking Pacquiao’s onslaughts off with ease, something which continued for the majority of the fight. While Pacquiao struggled to make the necessary adjustments, Marquez continued picking off his man, wrapping up round after round on both mine, and the judges, scorecards.


Another reason Pacquiao struggles with the Mexican warrior can be put down to Ring IQ. While there is no doubting Pacquiao’s greatness, I do not regard him as an intelligent boxer. When fighting opponents who come forward at him like Antonio Margarito, Miguel Cotto and Britain’s Ricky Hatton, the Filipino sensation looks unbeatable. However, when Pacquiao is forced to think about his shots, he becomes increasingly unorganised and less effective. While this was clearly seen in the pound for pound king’s showdown with Sugar Shane Mosley, Pacquiao’s latest fight with the Mexican Marquez clearly highlighted the problem. Marquez had no trouble stepping slightly out of range and measuring his man, all the while thinking three or four punches down the line. Pacquiao, despite the addition of a right hand to his ever growing arsenal of punches, still remains uncomfortable on the outside, and doesn’t really know how to initiate an assault without lunging in and committing himself. While Pacquiao often landed more punches than his opponent during these onslaughts, it was Marquez who was always producing the classier work, something which should catch the eye of the ringside judges.


A final reason why I believe Pacquiao struggles with Marquez is entirely mental. While their clash of styles will always provide an even fight, Marquez has been able to get into the head of the Filipino. Ever since the pair’s first encounter which ended in a controversial draw, Marquez has campaigned somewhat religiously for a rematch. After their 2008 rematch, Marquez, convinced he had clearly won on points, cried out of a third fight, something Pacquiao declined in the post fight interview. Marquez however, was incensed, and even travelled to the Philippians campaigning for yet another shot at Pacquiao. He infamously wore a lime green t-shirt with ‘Marquez Beat Pacquiao Twice’ written on the front. Pacquiao became hostile to Marquez and, with their third fight signed, he embarked on a training camp described as ‘his most intense yet’ by his trainer Freddie Roach. Marquez, it seemed, had not only done enough to talk his way into a third fight, but he had also proceeded to aggravate Pacquiao enough to drag him out of his comfort zone. While Pacquiao was ready for war, Marquez was happy to stand on the outside and counterpunch at will.


Beyond all doubt, their first three fights were controversial and exciting enough to merit a fourth and final showdown. While Pacquiao may officially be 2-0-1 with the great Mexican, many fans have it much closer. Personally, I scored their first fight a 113-113 draw, with Pacquiao winning the 2nd fight by a 115-113 margin. As I’ve already stated, I feel Marquez won the most recent fight 115-113. That means this observer not only has the terrific trilogy 1-1-1, but their points tally overall also matches up. While Marquez has won more rounds on my scorecard, Pacquiao has countered this with his four knockdowns over their three fights.


Fans on both sides may argue against a further rematch. Pacquiao’s fans often point out that the Filipino has now beaten Marquez twice, while Mexicans argue that their hero has in fact won each of the three fights without being given a decision. They simply argue what is the point of another fight when it is clear Marquez will not get a decision. For me, a fourth fight is not only a necessity for both fighters; a change of scenery is also needed. The fight would be huge in a Mexican 60,000 seat stadium. It is debatable if Pacquiao’s team will risk going south of the boarder for a fourth and final fight. But Floyd Mayweather aside, Pacquiao is running out of opponents willing to fight him. One thing is certain, Marquez will accept the challenge if the fight is laid in his lap. Will he be given a decision in a close fight? Well, we will have to wait and see.




@dvano1 people!!!

Do you want to see a 4th fight? How do you have the trilogy?
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

Most great champs through history had an opponent that seemed beneath them, that they just could not dominate.
Pep had Saddler, even though Pep had easily defeated several guys that Saddler had lost to.
Ali had Norton, even though Nortons historical impact is dependant on the Ali fights only.
Even Dempsey had a little fat journeyman named Willie Meehan that he could never get a handle on to contend with.

In the case of Pac-Marquez-Mayweather , Juans performances against both may not really indicate how Manny vs Floyd will go. Floyd will probably win, but not with the expected dominance based on Pac-Juan III.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:49 PM   #3
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

3-0 Pac

Come on, Pac destroyed Marquez 4 times in 3 fights.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:51 PM   #4
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

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Originally Posted by GTSK View Post
3-0 Pac

Come on, Pac destroyed Marquez 4 times in 3 fights.

Any update on what the UN has said about Congressman Manny's human right violations at the hands of JMM a couple weeks back, bro???
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:12 PM   #5
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

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Any update on what the UN has said about Congressman Manny's human right violations at the hands of JMM a couple weeks back, bro???
Nothing yet. The security council is still investigating if JMM used weapons of mass destruction.
Hopefully JMM gets brought to justice so Manny won't have to deal with him anymore.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:13 PM   #6
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

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Nithing yet. The security council is still investigating JMM used weapons of mass destruction.
Hopefully JMM gets brought to justice so Manny won't have to deal with him anymore.

Justice needs to be served, my dude. How dare anyone attempt to harm Congressman Manny?
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:22 PM   #7
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

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Originally Posted by FlatNose View Post
Most great champs through history had an opponent that seemed beneath them, that they just could not dominate.
Pep had Saddler, even though Pep had easily defeated several guys that Saddler had lost to.
Ali had Norton, even though Nortons historical impact is dependant on the Ali fights only.
Even Dempsey had a little fat journeyman named Willie Meehan that he could never get a handle on to contend with.

In the case of Pac-Marquez-Mayweather , Juans performances against both may not really indicate how Manny vs Floyd will go. Floyd will probably win, but not with the expected dominance based on Pac-Juan III.
Thanks for reading! I agree with what you are saying about the 'boogyman' effect. Most great fighters suffered an opponent they couldn't get rid of.*

Pacquiao is the greater fighter, but JMM just knows how to deal with him
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

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Originally Posted by GTSK View Post
3-0 Pac

Come on, Pac destroyed Marquez 4 times in 3 fights.
[IMG]http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/4/a/4a4da-Ari_Gold_Get_the_****_Out.gif[/IMG]
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:14 PM   #9
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

pee
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

No, it'll be another close fight with Pac getting an undeserved win


The only way for Marquez to ever win against Pac would be by brutal KO, Martinez-Williams style
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:27 PM   #11
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

Nice work m8, I'd love to see them fight again but wont be too fussed if Pac/May gets made instead.

Dinamita is undoubtedly Manny's boogieman but I think fighting the bigger guys has maybe taken its toll a bit on Pacquiao and has slowed him up.

I've always had Mayweather on points against Pacquiao but I would sincerely love it if Manny fought and beat him.

I may have to change my scorecard to 117-113 Marquez as most people like yourself scored Round 6 as a clear Pacquiao Round but I had it even.

Regardless of whether Fight IV is made or not I will be watching the Trilogy between these two great fighters for years to come.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

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Old 11-29-2011, 03:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

We as fans want it , but put your self in juans shoes , I see no benefit from a 4th fight if manny dose not get koed then he wins another close fight. Juan was really upset despite the money he earned. This guy just loves the sport and to not be properly recognized for the hard work sucks. He can further his legacy by taking on morals and a few more at 140 rather then add a guaranteed loss to your legacy. Most people think he won the 3rd fight and will always feel that way.
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Old 11-30-2011, 06:06 AM   #14
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Default Re: Manny Pacquiao and the nuisance that is Juan Manuel Marquez!

for those who didnt read.

Next up: The Importance of the Lower weight classes, and a Re-Evaluation of Prince Naz
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