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Old 12-01-2011, 03:47 AM   #1
Boilermaker
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Default Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

I hope i dont steal Luffys thunder with this one, but I would like to go a little slower, perhaps decade at a time or 5 yearss or less at a time, giving full consideration to claims of every fighter Luffy identified in his thread series as well as any other potential claimants,

It will be interesting to see who was the greatest pound for pound fighter ever for the longest period of times. although it might take a year or so, hopefully there will be good discussion.

I will start with the easy times.

1882-84 John L Sullivan -- Starting with his domination of Paddy Ryan, Sullivan was pretty much considered the perfect fighter at this point. and with his tour, it is hard to argue other title strains, even though he was technically probably only an American Champion. Larry Foley and Jem Mace might have had the best P4P claims but I think both were a little old, and not at their best to be considered in Sullivans league.

1885-1886 John L Sullivan -

Saw the domination continue. But Sullivan did slow a little. And, interestingly,

Tom Lees from Australia started to lodge a claim by Ko ing Bill Farnan who had just himself KOd Peter Jackson. I dont think that this is enough to usurp Sullivan as the premiere fighter, but people might be startong to think.
The Non Paril Jack Dempsey must have been really starting to put serious pressure on to the pound for pound mantle with his win over George La blanche. The american middleweight and new yorkl light weight champ, could be close to taking over sullivan but i think Sully still deserves the nod.

And in 1886, Jackl McAuliffe was claiming the light weight championship with wins over Frazier and Hopper.

Interestingly, Fitzsimmons who was really only a lightweight or welterweight seemed to be struggling with Dooley, so i dont really think he did enough to qualify, despite beating Slade as a lightweight and wionning the NZ Championship.

All in all, I would keep Sullivan as no 1 up until 1986. Any Disagreements, Yet?
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Old 12-01-2011, 04:05 AM   #2
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

not an argument... just a question.

how big was the Dooley that Fitz struggled with? wasnt Dooley a heavyweight?
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Old 12-01-2011, 04:19 AM   #3
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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not an argument... just a question.

how big was the Dooley that Fitz struggled with? wasnt Dooley a heavyweight?
He was a heavyweight at the time, but remember that anything over 150 was a heavyweight. I am not sure how much of a heavyweight Dooley was at the time, i think maybe a super middle/light heavy in todays terms. But remember, Fitz was also a lightweight or welterweight by todays weights.

Also, dont forget that while i say fitz was struggling, i base this on one short report which says basically that the larger Dooley did what he wanted with Fitz in an exhibition. Fitz himself has stated that he never lost a fight at this time, and i think that these were really just exhibitions where not too much can be gained from it. Still, i dont think that Fitz did as much as McAuliffe or Dempsey, even though in reality (and with hindsight) he was probably a better fighter than both, as he proved by eventually beating Dempsey. Actually when you consider that he had already beaten Slade (a big world heavyweight challenger) and won the NZ titles twice, maybe he has a very good claim as the best fighter in the world, if we use the hindsight measurement? What does everyone think of this idea?
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Old 12-01-2011, 04:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

Dooley, by the way was 6 foot tall and finished fighting at about 195lbs. As early as 1898, boxrec has him weighing 195lbs for a fight, but one has to question this accuracy and/or his condition.

Either way, he was an underated fighter at heavyeight level, and there is really no shame for a welterweight to struggly with him.
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Old 12-01-2011, 04:55 AM   #5
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

Not critisizing in the least. Just very interested and looking to learn more. I think you've got a great concept here.

I've heard that the science of Dooley was quite highly regarded in his day, he was a favourite of Foley, but lacked a punch.

Oddly enough i've heard Fitz was not regarded of that highly at all while in Australia. His English and Kiwi background may have weighed into those opinions though
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Old 12-01-2011, 06:51 AM   #6
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

Read Adam Pollack's bio of Fitzsimmons, rather then keep repeating the usual myths.
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:08 AM   #7
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

Great idea

Fitz and tommy ryan have pretty good early claims imo.
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Old 12-01-2011, 08:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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All in all, I would keep Sullivan as no 1 up until 1986. Any Disagreements, Yet?
I think you'll get a few mate
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Old 12-01-2011, 11:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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I think you'll get a few mate


Can you imagine?
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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Originally Posted by Senya13 View Post
Read Adam Pollack's bio of Fitzsimmons, rather then keep repeating the usual myths.
Without derailing the threads, I will bite, which myths are you talking about?

You should read the Fitz appreciation thread which has the links to everything i stated above rather than rely on a bio written 100 years later (not that it isnt a great bio and one of the best pieces ever written).
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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Originally Posted by Bugger View Post
Not critisizing in the least. Just very interested and looking to learn more. I think you've got a great concept here.

I've heard that the science of Dooley was quite highly regarded in his day, he was a favourite of Foley, but lacked a punch.

Oddly enough i've heard Fitz was not regarded of that highly at all while in Australia. His English and Kiwi background may have weighed into those opinions though
Learning more is what it is all about, and why I wanted to go slowly and digest things hopefully from different posters who can push claims of different fighters as we go along.
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:08 PM   #12
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
I think you'll get a few mate
I outlined the guys I saw who had a claim, do you see anyone else with a legitimate claim or think any of those were better than Sullivan at the time?
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

You've written 1986 ya' mentalist
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Old 12-01-2011, 03:15 PM   #14
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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You've written 1986 ya' mentalist

That is because in 1986 a young Tyson came along and beat Berbick so impressively that John L Decided to retire instead of being coaxed into dropping the colour line
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Old 12-01-2011, 04:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

Yeah I likt the slow and steady idea as well, If I was to do it I'd just immerse myself for a day and get lost completely.

I think I could do a realistic timeline from the 70's onwards p4p but before then my knowledge is far from secure, which is part of the reason I've gone through history like this.

One thing I'll say is that hw's were much better regarded p4p back then so Sullivan and Jeffries would have been top of most p4p lists had they been compiled.
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