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Old 12-04-2011, 05:29 PM   #31
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
From 86 seems fair. Up until then sullivan was in a class of his own imo.
So, we have

1883 Sullivan
1884 Sullivan
1885 Sullivan
1886 Dempsey

I will give Dempsey the slight edge based on quality of competition though with some personal prservations. that may need to be revisited later.

This moves us on to 1887.

Sullivan broke his arm against Cariff, which really meant we saw the last of Prime Sullivan. His english tour was successful other than this, but i think that Dempsey might be improving too much for him. Interestingly, in 1888 Dempsey fought an exhibibition with SUlly. Not that this really proves anything.

Dempsey won a dozen points decisions (to be fair Sullivan won more KOS) but it certainly looks like Dempsey'sopposition were pound for pound better but it is unclear. He also had the great title defence where he triumphed. Although, this appears to have been an LPR rules fight.
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McAuliffe meanwhile, had a good win over Harry Gimore which has him as the world Lightweight champion still, but he then fought the draw with Jem Carney, who many say he lost or would have lost. Carney, whose claims as the English lightweightn champ could see him challenge for the title depending on how you view the Frazier and McAuliffe bouts, which could both be seen as a win in some circumstances.

In Australia, Jackson had beaten Dooley and Lees the year before but was strangely quiet in competition in 87, despite winning solidly in his fights. I dont think he did enough to really figure.

Fitz had some solid 4 rounders but nothing is really known about the decisions. If he won them all (Slavin, Hall, Bonner, Lees and Dooley) he would have a very good claim, and the KO over Slavin was still a good win, as were some of his other wins, but i dont think he was necessarilly the best fighter in the world at this point. (Would have loved to have seen Dempsey Fitz now though). In hindsight, knowing what he did, he does have a claim.

Are there any other possibilities?
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:42 PM   #32
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
So, we have

1883 Sullivan
1884 Sullivan
1885 Sullivan
1886 Dempsey

I will give Dempsey the slight edge based on quality of competition though with some personal prservations. that may need to be revisited later.

This moves us on to 1887.

Sullivan broke his arm against Cariff, which really meant we saw the last of Prime Sullivan. His english tour was successful other than this, but i think that Dempsey might be improving too much for him. Interestingly, in 1888 Dempsey fought an exhibibition with SUlly. Not that this really proves anything.

Dempsey won a dozen points decisions (to be fair Sullivan won more KOS) but it certainly looks like Dempsey'sopposition were pound for pound better but it is unclear. He also had the great title defence where he triumphed. Although, this appears to have been an LPR rules fight.
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McAuliffe meanwhile, had a good win over Harry Gimore which has him as the world Lightweight champion still, but he then fought the draw with Jem Carney, who many say he lost or would have lost. Carney, whose claims as the English lightweightn champ could see him challenge for the title depending on how you view the Frazier and McAuliffe bouts, which could both be seen as a win in some circumstances.

In Australia, Jackson had beaten Dooley and Lees the year before but was strangely quiet in competition in 87, despite winning solidly in his fights. I dont think he did enough to really figure.

Fitz had some solid 4 rounders but nothing is really known about the decisions. If he won them all (Slavin, Hall, Bonner, Lees and Dooley) he would have a very good claim, and the KO over Slavin was still a good win, as were some of his other wins, but i dont think he was necessarilly the best fighter in the world at this point. (Would have loved to have seen Dempsey Fitz now though). In hindsight, knowing what he did, he does have a claim.

Are there any other possibilities?
To be completely honest I think it's open and shut case until fitz loses to jeffries.

I genuinely think noone else comes close.

Jeffries was seen as superman himself so he probably has the title from fitz till retirement.

The only men i'd consider to be a threat to my proposal are barbados and tommy ryan.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:06 PM   #33
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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To be completely honest I think it's open and shut case until fitz loses to jeffries.

I genuinely think noone else comes close.

Jeffries was seen as superman himself so he probably has the title from fitz till retirement.

The only men i'd consider to be a threat to my proposal are barbados and tommy ryan.
Do you think that Fitz takes over already?

In Australia, I think that Peter Jackson was rated higher than Fitz at this point, even on a pound for pound basis. Though i think that this could change.

If we use hindsight, where Fitz beat Dempsey (and both were similar ages and stages of his career) and Fitz also beat the man who drew with Jackson, Fitz' longevity as the pound for pound for pound greatest is probably unparalleled.

Your comments regarding Jeffries are interesting. I dont think that Fitz loss to Jeffries is necessarilly enough for Jeffries to overtake him on apound for pound basis given Fitz performance. Still, I would like to deliberately delay this discussion until after you have completed your full tiimeline series.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:16 PM   #34
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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Do you think that Fitz takes over already?

In Australia, I think that Peter Jackson was rated higher than Fitz at this point, even on a pound for pound basis. Though i think that this could change.

If we use hindsight, where Fitz beat Dempsey (and both were similar ages and stages of his career) and Fitz also beat the man who drew with Jackson, Fitz' longevity as the pound for pound for pound greatest is probably unparalleled.

Your comments regarding Jeffries are interesting. I dont think that Fitz loss to Jeffries is necessarilly enough for Jeffries to overtake him on apound for pound basis given Fitz performance. Still, I would like to deliberately delay this discussion until after you have completed your full tiimeline series.
Well n.p. Was amazingly highly regarded until his loss in the finish fight which is where fitz potentially takes over.

Cool i'm currently on the fw division so only have 6 divisions to complete hopefully within 2 weeks.

I'm going over every division above fw to be a bit more explicit about when certainly claims are usurped.

From the top of my head I can't imagine many having a longer spell at the top then fitz. Pea with hindsight would have a good claim but i'd still place him behind tyson and chavez until he beat chavez. Although now that I think of it wilde must have a terrific claim himself.
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Old 12-05-2011, 12:34 PM   #35
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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This Mace family sailed from Wellington, not from Timaru. North Island, not South.

I just reread the listing. the ship( the waitaki), left Wellington (north island) to port in Picton (south Island) and Nelson (South Island) and "the south".

It seems to me that Mace was moving towards Timaru on the south island and this is perfectly consistent with Fitz' story.

So far, i have only found evidence of 3 maces (who would be about 50 and 20 (all from the same family) who are in NZ other than Jem. They did seem to live in Lyttleton on the south island so it is not inconceivable that this was them. Seems very unlikely though.

The only other evidence of a mace in NZ I could find was a George Walter Mace, who was an early settler in Wellington in 1845. One might imagine that he might have had some sons who would travel at this time, and the wellington location does check out, but to be honest, with the coburn connection, the timing and most importantly Fitz' testimony it seems most likely that this passenger list was in fact Jem mace.
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Old 12-05-2011, 01:32 PM   #36
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

I'm afraid this is the same kind of thing as when that guy, what was his name, from the other coast, supposedly turned up in Goshen somehow at the right moment to see that sparring between Darcy and Fulton, with Fulton being KO'd, on which there is not a single primary source as an evidence. A lot of events with very little possibility of happening taking place all at the same time. There must be a very strong Ta'veren around, of Dragon Reborn caliber, for that to take place.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:03 PM   #37
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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I'm afraid this is the same kind of thing as when that guy, what was his name, from the other coast, supposedly turned up in Goshen somehow at the right moment to see that sparring between Darcy and Fulton, with Fulton being KO'd, on which there is not a single primary source as an evidence. A lot of events with very little possibility of happening taking place all at the same time. There must be a very strong Ta'veren around, of Dragon Reborn caliber, for that to take place.
That was a bit differrent, in that one the guy (whose name we are not allowed to mention or the thread will be deleted) said that it was a fact that it didnt happen and that it as good as proof, so it was much harder to prove it happened.

But in all seriousness, it is always going to prove impossible to say what fights did or didnt happen when they are not reported in the newspaper. But when things are made up, you will usually find something which shows it couldnt happen. In Goshen, among other things Klompton pointed out that Dempsey was not in the running for a fight with Darcy which seemed believanle and therfore his handlers couldnt be chasing a fight. Further review shows that Dempsey had claimed the light heavyweight title right around this time and the story is not disproven. A pretty big coincidence one would thought. Not only is it not proved that he is lying, but if anything the discovered facts support Dempseys version. It is not as if Dempsey would have google searched before he said something to make these facts play out.

Mace is another example. He was in the news in Australia every day for years and all of a sudden right when Fitz says he came to NZ he drops out of the news in Australia. It is not as if Fitz could have google searched to find out when he should say it is a debut. And why would Fitzsimmons possibly make up his debut like that. For a start, one would imagine Mace might have pulled him up on it. Mace was obviously getting old, but also loved getting his name in lights. And Secondly, you would also think that Herbert Slade might also have pulled him up on this. Both could do with the press, i a sure.

And it is a pretty basic error that someone would not make. It is one thing to embellish and exaggerate your accomplishments but it is clearly another to blatantly make something up that is so easy to disprove otherwise, at the time, and which doesnt really do much to improve your legacy. For example why would you mention Mace who was always in the papers, when you easily could have just said that you fought Slade.

And another thing i cant understand, why do so many people say the Slade fight didnt happen but the Slade's cousin fight did. It is just strange that people are willing to believe one but not the other, for no real apparent reason. It is almost certain that if Fitz had KOd Slade, Mace would have tried to suppress it, so why is it so hard to believe.
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

Speaking of darcy, I must say the more I learn the more impressed I am. He really did a number on the mw division.
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Old 12-05-2011, 10:38 PM   #39
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You are clearly breaking the principles of Occam's razor for your version. The explanation offered by Adam (which I agree with) is much more simple, logical and supported by primary sources. So it's easier to understand than a version consisting of a lot of "what if's" with no evidence to back it up, other than words of a boxer (who is known to have lied at least once) written down a quarter of a century later than the events supposedly taken place. For Mace and Slade to have come up with a disclaimer you'd need them to see the original piece, and you have to be sure that their words would be published in some sources you may have access to. Mace was in the UK with short trips to South Africa and had better things to do than read Australian newspapers. The whereabouts of Slade at the time are not even recorded.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:15 PM   #40
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

occams razor? I will stick with the Peter Falk columbo theory, thanks.

Adam's theory I assume is that Mace toured in 1882 and this is when all this happened, as there are some sources for this. No one disputes this, but again, even primary sources are not the be all and end all.

Particularly Jem Mace, who as John L Sullivan tells the story, when Mace was trying to make a match with him (fixed) and was using the press to garner headlines and make money, Mace says to Sullivan words to the effect of dont worry about what i say in the press, i have to try to earn a living somehow. It is quite clear that Mace was very skilled at manipulating the press for publicity purposes. I doubt he would want to publicise a loss for his protege. if anything, the newspaper reports are going to more biased than fitz in this regard.

Leaving that asided, there is no doubt that appolack has researched this area far greater than you and i, and i dont dispute that he has a theory of what happened. But let us remember, the first hand evidence is that Mace toured twice, not once. There is no evidence whatsoever to dispute this or say it is not possible. Just wild speculation based (admittedly) on things which suggest that it might be less likely . If Fitz hadnt made his comment, i would have to concede the point. but he did.

In simple terms. If you steal my wallet and i see you, and you show that you were with me 12 months after and that you were not in the area a couple of months before I say it happened, it does not get you off the charge. This is what we have here. You need to get some evidence which shows that it could not happen, before Fitz first hand evidence is discounted. If it were not true, it should not be all that hard, to be honest.
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Old 12-05-2011, 11:24 PM   #41
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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Speaking of darcy, I must say the more I learn the more impressed I am. He really did a number on the mw division.
Yeah, to be honest, i originally thought Darcy was overated because of his early death, and (dont quote me on this) i think Ketchell is helped by this and Sanchez. But after the Darcy thread particularly Bobby Sinn's andothers contributions (and for a long time i think Klompton might have had them covered on certain technicalities) it does become clear that Darcy really was an ATG. Admittedly maybe not quite as good as the legend, but not far off.

Just imagine, if with hindsight, you could hand pick a couple of fights from his US tour. Darcy would likely have started favourite if he took the fights against Dempsey, Greb and probably even Langford, Tunney and Fulton at that stage. If he had those names on his resume combined with the fact that he looks good on film he could be easily considered above Robinson.

Of course, the reality is that he more than likely finds a way to waste his talent (ala Tyson) but, he didnt and based on what he did actually do, he deserves to be bracketed with the very best, losing only on the issue of longevity.
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Old 12-06-2011, 12:59 AM   #42
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What Jem Mace had done elsewhere is of no relevance here. Mace wasn't a resident of Timaru, he had no connections there, I doubt he even knew what local or semi-local newspapers reporters were at the ringside. He could not see the future, so he couldn't prevent them from writing anything about him or his tournament before he arrived and it had taken place, but there's not a single word about it in Timaru Herald (I search the NZ newspapers in 1880 for keyword "Mace", and as I said previously, I found only one mention of Jem Mace during the whole year, about him heading for some Australian city). Unless you want to make assumption that Mace was so keen on hiding the truth that he either destroyed all issues of local newspaper that might have covered that event, or made them print new copies with no mention of himself or a tournament.

Mace was in Timaru twice in 1882. Why would Fitz participate only in one of the shows and not the other (if his first win of the tournament was indeed in 1880), since it was such a rare occasion? Why should we trust Fitz's words if he wasn't exactly known to be a perfectly honest person, anyway? We have plenty of examples of Fitz and scores of other famous boxers telling false stories about their boxing careers, so that it has become a norm. Except for his own words printed in some Australian newspaper, we have no evidence whatsoever of that event. While we have two confirmed (by primary sources) occasions in 1882 where Fitz had a chance to participate in the shows staged by Mace at Timaru, and on one occasion there was Slade's younger brother participating in the amateur tournament. Now if there had been no mention of a brother, we could have assumed that Fitz met Herbert Slade (to believe that he knocked him out in 3 rounds is quite a bit of a stretch of imagination, considering that according the primary sources Slade has showed very good ability, the size difference was huge too). But until later that year, December 1882, we have no evidence of Slade meeting anyone but Mace himself in a boxing bout or exhibition. He didn't offer to meet any newcomers or anything. What's more, on their visit in June, Slade only wrestled with William Miller in Timaru, he didn't box, while Fitz claims that after he beat him, "Slade six months later went to America". Slade only participated in boxing shows for the first time during late August, barely 3.5 months before leaving for USA.

Fitz claims "When seventeen years old, Jem Mace made his first trip to Australia." In fact, Mace exhibited in Australia from early 1877 and had a business there.

Et cetera, et cetera. Fitz's words don't hold water.
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Old 12-06-2011, 01:41 AM   #43
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Default Re: Timeline of the Pound for Pound Greatest Fighter.

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What Jem Mace had done elsewhere is of no relevance here. Mace wasn't a resident of Timaru, he had no connections there, I doubt he even knew what local or semi-local newspapers reporters were at the ringside. He could not see the future, so he couldn't prevent them from writing anything about him or his tournament before he arrived and it had taken place, but there's not a single word about it in Timaru Herald (I search the NZ newspapers in 1880 for keyword "Mace", and as I said previously, I found only one mention of Jem Mace during the whole year, about him heading for some Australian city). Unless you want to make assumption that Mace was so keen on hiding the truth that he either destroyed all issues of local newspaper that might have covered that event, or made them print new copies with no mention of himself or a tournament.
The problem is that if you search the same paper for keywords "boxing" and take out the paid advertisements and the articles that are referring to "boxing day", you barely get a mention of the sport. The papers simply hardly followed boxing. Presumably Mace learned from that first visit and started paying advertisements for the next trip.

Quote:
Mace was in Timaru twice in 1882. Why would Fitz participate only in one of the shows and not the other (if his first win of the tournament was indeed in 1880), since it was such a rare occasion? Why should we trust Fitz's words if he wasn't exactly known to be a perfectly honest person, anyway? We have plenty of examples of Fitz and scores of other famous boxers telling false stories about their boxing careers, so that it has become a norm. Except for his own words printed in some Australian newspaper, we have no evidence whatsoever of that event.
We also have no evidence whatsoever that it didnt happen. That is why we should believe Fitz. His record isnt that of a compulsive liar. Or do you know something that i dont.

Quote:
While we have two confirmed (by primary sources) occasions in 1882 where Fitz had a chance to participate in the shows staged by Mace at Timaru, and on one occasion there was Slade's younger brother participating in the amateur tournament. Now if there had been no mention of a brother, we could have assumed that Fitz met Herbert Slade (to believe that he knocked him out in 3 rounds is quite a bit of a stretch of imagination, considering that according the primary sources Slade has showed very good ability, the size difference was huge too). But until later that year, December 1882, we have no evidence of Slade meeting anyone but Mace himself in a boxing bout or exhibition. He didn't offer to meet any newcomers or anything. What's more, on their visit in June, Slade only wrestled with William Miller in Timaru, he didn't box, while Fitz claims that after he beat him, "Slade six months later went to America". Slade only participated in boxing shows for the first time during late August, barely 3.5 months before leaving for USA.
It really is a bit unbelievable to suggest that Slade went to the USA without having fought a single fight other than Mace Exhibitions. I am sorry but you dont honestly suggest that he didnt fight some local fighters before he left. I know he was a hype job but i highly doubt that he takes on the Greatest fighter of all time, 10,000 miles away without at least a few warm ups.

Quote:
Fitz claims "When seventeen years old, Jem Mace made his first trip to Australia." In fact, Mace exhibited in Australia from early 1877 and had a business there.

Et cetera, et cetera. Fitz's words don't hold water.
Fitz wasnt in australia and wasnt extra close to Mace. It is understandable why you would not give his words the same attachment in this scenario. Plus, it can also be proved wrong in any case.

This is a totally different story. The fact remains that there is no evidence whatsoever to prove fitz wrong on this particular point. And why is it that you seem to give more credence to Newspaper reporters than a champion with no reason to lie. I can show you a timely report of John L Sullivan handling Peter Jackson easily in sparring. Do you believe this one?
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Old 12-06-2011, 02:35 AM   #44
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By the way, in December 81, as a matter of interest, Slade won the Waimate Wrestling title, and placed third in the shot put. this is just 100 kms or so from Timaru.

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And in December 82, Slade and Mace were both taking on all comers.

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Old 12-06-2011, 03:16 AM   #45
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Mace was a celebrity already, and would get a mention at least in some of the newspapers along the path of his trip, or in Australian newspapers that would report on him leaving for New Zealand. If you read more of those old newspapers, you'll see that they liked to report gossips or news about celebrities, even if they had taken place on the opposite side of the world, and they were even more interested in reporting them in relation to their own region. They had to sell papers and people always loved to hear/read about celebrities. Mace didn't need to pay anything for the news about his visit to New Zealand in 1882 to be re-printed even by the most obscure NZ papers.

We have the evidence originating in primary sources and we have Fitz's words from many-many years later.

Slade was into wrestling (as early as 1880 as I can tell, he was the local champion), not a boxer, although he may have had some street fights as a youth. It wasn't until he met Mace that he thought about boxing. He was sending and accepting challenges as a wrestler until his departure to the USA with Mace on Dec. 5. Boxing was so "popular", that at a boxing tournament on Aug. 26 Slade was the only participant in heavyweight division, so he had to spar with Mace instead. Only two boxers contested in the lightweight division. Before the departure, the only time he sparred with somebody else, that we have the evidence of, is with two best Auckland amateur heavyweights on Dec. 4 (he also had a short wrestling bout the same night). A wire from SF on Jan 9, 1883, said: "Speaking for Slade, he (Mace) said the latter had never had a glove on until within the last year"

There would have been no reason for Fitz to lie only if he was talking about something totally neutral, not when he's talking about himself. He had every reason to hype himself up. I don't believe for a second to his story about that football team captain hitting him for no particular reason either. People very often invent colorful things to sell their stories when somebody is willing to pay for it.
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