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Old 12-07-2011, 10:18 PM   #46
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

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Not that I disagree with you, but it's funny how so many people (pactards mainly) consider Pac a top 20 ATG.
Yeah, Pacquiao's not one of the 20 best fighters ever. There have been so many brilliant fighters over the years who have amassed absurd resumes. And for some who don't quite have resumes up there with the Greb's, Robinson's, Armstrong's, Charles's, etc., they have shown amazing skill on film. It's ridiculously hard to squeeze into that top 20 area. I've seen lists with Leonard on the outside and great arguments to support it as well. Boxing's history is incredibly rich and deep, and even that is an understatement.
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:21 PM   #47
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

I think beating either Pac or Floyd would do it.
As good as Tito was he does not really have a signature win.
Shot to shit Whitaker? and the Oscar win is not really a win it was a huge robbery.
Add to that Cotto was never dominated as badly as Tito was by Hopkins or Wright.
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Old 12-07-2011, 10:29 PM   #48
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

not happening no matter who he beats now and im a huge cotto fan...just look at titos resume and his reign at welterweight he is an atg...but cottos resume shits on alottt of people in todays boxing
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Old 12-07-2011, 11:05 PM   #49
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

Cotto does not care if he surpass Tito or not... so neither should we. IMHO Cotto is a better boxer-not puncher- than Tito vs if in doubt watch ODLH vs Tito.
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Old 12-08-2011, 12:18 AM   #50
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

First of all Tito is not Puerto Rico's greatest boxer, he is among PR's greatest.

the top guys are Ortiz, Gomez, Benitez in no particular order followed by Trinidad. Cotto winning a fourth title doesnt really do anything as its an alhpabet title era. Cotto could have been so much better. I dont know if it was a lack of desire to hone craft, improve defense, and work ceaselessly on the finer points of his game, or a lack of durability.

He really doesnt belong at 154 he should have been at 140. He really lacks durabilty. Cotto will be remembered as one of our great fighters and there is a small window of oppurtunity left to establish a greater legacy within his place. However the wrong trainers, game plans, corners, and shitty training habits have all contributed. But its the lack of durability, plus fighting at the wrong weights that will keep him way below Trinidad. But lets see how Cotto plays out before he is through maybe he will leave a better leagacy with which to accurately judge him
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Old 12-08-2011, 12:53 AM   #51
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

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First of all Tito is not Puerto Rico's greatest boxer, he is among PR's greatest.

the top guys are Ortiz, Gomez, Benitez in no particular order followed by Trinidad. Cotto winning a fourth title doesnt really do anything as its an alhpabet title era. Cotto could have been so much better. I dont know if it was a lack of desire to hone craft, improve defense, and work ceaselessly on the finer points of his game, or a lack of durability.

He really doesnt belong at 154 he should have been at 140. He really lacks durabilty. Cotto will be remembered as one of our great fighters and there is a small window of oppurtunity left to establish a greater legacy within his place. However the wrong trainers, game plans, corners, and shitty training habits have all contributed. But its the lack of durability, plus fighting at the wrong weights that will keep him way below Trinidad. But lets see how Cotto plays out before he is through maybe he will leave a better leagacy with which to accurately judge him
I think everybody agrees that Tito is not the greatest, thats why I said I have Cotto behind him in PRs ATG list so I have Cotto number 5 and Tito #4. I understand your point though and I think Cotto realizes 2012 might be his last year in building what will become his legacy. Hopefully he can make a good case to get close to Tito.
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Old 12-08-2011, 01:06 AM   #52
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

beating Mayweather and Pacquiao would defintley do it, but being a bit more reasonable and realistic assuming Cotto stays with Bob would probably take a combination of Pacquiao, Martinez, and Berto (or Williams).
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:56 AM   #53
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

**** FMJ up in two fights.
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Old 12-08-2011, 04:13 AM   #54
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

pac and may are enough.. if he can add martinez the better
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:13 AM   #55
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

Cotto CAN catch him. Frankly, he did nearly as much at welter. Biggest thing separating their 147 reigns is Cotto coming up short against Margo, and Tito getting his gift against DLH. I'd give Tito a slight edge in competition overall, but they both came up short in their defining fights at the weight. Cotto beating Mosley makes it close; Its a better win than Tito had at 147, imo. Shane was in great form.

Coming up short to the fighter of the decade doesn't count for much against a guy, imo; Tito got waxed by a perennial p4p top ranker in his move up to 160, Cotto got waxed by Pacquiao. Cotto may have done slightly better against Pac then Tito did against Hopkins, but its irrelevant.

Thing separating them right now is the 154 and 160 stuff. Tito went up to 154 and did some damage, then went up to beat a pretty good middleweight champ before he started getting embarassed.

Cotto needs to keep doing at 154. He needs to beat the other belt holders and keep beating good fighters. Then, if he moved up to 160, and beat, say, Sturm, he'd be right there. Beat another 160 belt holder or a good, top10 middleweight, he'd pass Tito.

Problem is this; Cotto, while far from shot(period), is indeed fading. His prime, his peak fight, was clearly Mosley. He's looked pretty good resurrecting his career against Foreman and Margarito, but he's on the outs, not the up, and he'd need about 10 more fights to make his argument to beat Tito.

Cotto COULD pass Tito. I just don't think he has enough fights left as a world class guy to do it. I do think he's being underrated(He's the most proven boxer-puncher at 154, and looked good against Marg), but he's fading, and I doubt in a few years he'd have enough to move up again and do anything meaningful.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:25 AM   #56
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Cotto CAN catch him. Frankly, he did nearly as much at welter. Biggest thing separating their 147 reigns is Cotto coming up short against Margo, and Tito getting his gift against DLH. I'd give Tito a slight edge in competition overall, but they both came up short in their defining fights at the weight. Cotto beating Mosley makes it close; Its a better win than Tito had at 147, imo. Shane was in great form.

Coming up short to the fighter of the decade doesn't count for much against a guy, imo; Tito got waxed by a perennial p4p top ranker in his move up to 160, Cotto got waxed by Pacquiao. Cotto may have done slightly better against Pac then Tito did against Hopkins, but its irrelevant.

Thing separating them right now is the 154 and 160 stuff. Tito went up to 154 and did some damage, then went up to beat a pretty good middleweight champ before he started getting embarassed.

Cotto needs to keep doing at 154. He needs to beat the other belt holders and keep beating good fighters. Then, if he moved up to 160, and beat, say, Sturm, he'd be right there. Beat another 160 belt holder or a good, top10 middleweight, he'd pass Tito.

Problem is this; Cotto, while far from shot(period), is indeed fading. His prime, his peak fight, was clearly Mosley. He's looked pretty good resurrecting his career against Foreman and Margarito, but he's on the outs, not the up, and he'd need about 10 more fights to make his argument to beat Tito.

Cotto COULD pass Tito. I just don't think he has enough fights left as a world class guy to do it. I do think he's being underrated(He's the most proven boxer-puncher at 154, and looked good against Marg), but he's fading, and I doubt in a few years he'd have enough to move up again and do anything meaningful.
How the **** are Tito's and Cotto's reign at Welterweight identical? 0_o Tito had 10 plus defenses of his title, while Cotto won a vacant WBA belt, and vacant WBO belt by Michael Jennings, who he then struggled(really lost) to Clottey, then got knocked out by Pacquaio. You can't really compare Tito's lost to Hopkins to Cotto's lost to Pacquaio. First of all, Hopkins was the unified middleweight champion at the time with 15 plus defenses, and Trinidad was moving up in weight to fight him. Cotto lost to a midget Flyweight. You have to also take into account that Tito unfied the divisions he moved up to. Welterweight, Junior Middleweight, and he tried moving up to Middleweight.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:42 AM   #57
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

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Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Cotto CAN catch him. Frankly, he did nearly as much at welter.
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Originally Posted by DirtyDan View Post
How the **** are Tito's and Cotto's reign at Welterweight identical?
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:44 AM   #58
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

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How the **** are Tito's and Cotto's reign at Welterweight identical? 0_o Tito had 10 plus defenses of his title, while Cotto won a vacant WBA belt, and vacant WBO belt by Michael Jennings, who he then struggled(really lost) to Clottey, then got knocked out by Pacquaio. You can't really compare Tito's lost to Hopkins to Cotto's lost to Pacquaio. First of all, Hopkins was the unified middleweight champion at the time with 15 plus defenses, and Trinidad was moving up in weight to fight him. Cotto lost to a midget Flyweight. You have to also take into account that Tito unfied the divisions he moved up to. Welterweight, Junior Middleweight, and he tried moving up to Middleweight.
Didn't lose to Clottey. I scored the fight 114-113 Cotto.

Found a majority of Tito's reign unremarkable. Cotto moved up and started thrashing studs. Tito's title reign, with wins like Reid, DLH, and Blocker are the killers. Cotto beating Shane is damn impressive, but not enough to overcome Tito's consistency.

Cotto would need to outdo Tito at 154 and 160 to get the edge.

Pacquiao is frankly the scarier fighter, when compared to Hopkins. They both get a pass in terms of PR legacy coming up short against those guys. No shame losing to absolute beasts. Tito moved up, Cotto tried to cut back down; Both in less than optimal weight conditions.

Tito is above Cotto, and in all likelihood stays there. I was trying to sketch a scenario where Cotto passes him, however unrealistic.
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Old 12-08-2011, 05:45 AM   #59
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

martinez
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Old 12-08-2011, 07:02 AM   #60
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Default Re: What would Cotto need to do to surpass Tito???

Someone please give me Tito's best 5 wins?

(In your opinion obviously)
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