gene tunney vs liston.... - Page 4

he grant · 12-08-2011, 07:30 PM

No one is saying Tunney's a lock but to claim he was completely not vetted is wrong ... I repeat a 31 year Dempsey was still way faster than Liston and that Dempsey could barely touch him and when he did with half a dozen bone crushing shots Tunney survived ... Liston's hige reach ment little v.s. a 22 year old Ali because he was completely lost by Ali's foot speed .. I personally do not think the 22 year old Ali was any better than a prime Tunney .. It is a very interesting match up of styles ..

SuzieQ49 · 12-09-2011, 01:09 AM

Quote:

I repeat a 31 year Dempsey was still way faster than Liston

SuzieQ49 · 12-09-2011, 01:11 AM

Tunney is so ridiculously overrated h2h at heavyweight.

Only tunney( whom 1. Never fought a black man 2. never fought a big heavyweight 3. never fought a big man who knew how to fight) would get this much respect against Liston.

Ridiculous

Ylem · 12-09-2011, 01:26 AM

tunney would pwn liston.

like ali had crap foot work as far as technique wise it was fast but he was making mistakes, hed be moving the wrong foot first bouncing all around and find himself off balance. at this point in time when ali finds himself off balance liston was able to catch him.

if you watch the fight most the time when liston catches ali its because ali had made a foot work mistake seconds earlier, not because of listons pressure or cutting off the ring but because of alis mistake.

tunney was a master of footwork, liston wouldnt be able to catch him near as much as he was able to catch ali and with the few times liston does catch him its not like tunney had a glass jaw.

i give this to tunney on UD.

mcvey · 12-09-2011, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Tunney wouldn't get in the ring with George Godfrey, you think he would ever fight Sonny Liston? Tunney stayed clear of big heavyweights and big punchers his entire career. In this fight, he would be matched up with a 6'1 215lb all time great puncher with a tremendous jab, and top notch skills. Tunney never saw this before, and based on the limited film of him, I don't think he can handle Lston. Tunney's whole game was using his great footspeed to circle around the ring while using his fast hands/long reach to outbox his shorter foes from a distance. Only problem is none of those fighters had the long 84" left jab to compensate for Tunney's outside game. Tunney will be flustered all night by Liston's jab, and it will force Tunney to engange in flurries. Eventually one of Liston's haymakers is going to catch tunney leaning back with his low gaurd, and it's going to be lights out for Tunney. Liston also had tremendous head movement, a good workrate, and very good skills in his boxing game. Just a tough matchup for any sub 200lber trying to beat Liston.

Liston KO 6 Tunney

Tunney has a great chance here because.

Tunney had great foot work-Liston's was piss poor
Tunney was marvellous at using the perimeter of the ring - Liston never learned to cut the ring off his opponents.
Tunney had fast hands - Liston did not
Liston was very predictable, three steps throw the jab-Tunney would soon figure this out and be out of range.

Liston has a great chance because .

In his prime he was a decent boxer ,with huge power and ,a rock for a chin.

Tunney can evade his long punches ,maybe all night, but how much scoring of his own will he be able to do at that range ?

Tunney was fairly untested against big heavies.

Imponderables.
Tunney hit a lot harder with his right than is generally supposed, it was quick and accurate ,his jab was also swift and hurtful, it busted Dempsey's eyes up. In close ,Tunney threw short hard shots to the heart and stomach, when he was forced to fight inside he could.

Would Sonny lose focus ,and ambition if he cannot get to the gazelle like Tunney ?
Tunney was quicker than Machen and smarter too.

How does Tunney's chin react to a left hook from Liston ?

The only heavyweight bomber Tunney met was past his best, yet he had him down and in some distress.

My conclusion, not a fight to bet on.

SenorRamirez · 12-09-2011, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ylem

tunney would pwn liston.

like ali had crap foot work as far as technique wise it was fast but he was making mistakes, hed be moving the wrong foot first bouncing all around and find himself off balance. at this point in time when ali finds himself off balance liston was able to catch him.

if you watch the fight most the time when liston catches ali its because ali had made a foot work mistake seconds earlier, not because of listons pressure or cutting off the ring but because of alis mistake.

tunney was a master of footwork, liston wouldnt be able to catch him near as much as he was able to catch ali and with the few times liston does catch him its not like tunney had a glass jaw.

i give this to tunney on UD.

like ali ?
ali win by poins vs liston ?

he was a master of footwork ?
maybe vs the bear-footwork of dampsey,but liston was mutch faster than jack

yea, im know that my english is shit......

Liechhardt · 12-09-2011, 08:04 AM

Liston's stiff long jab is the deciding factor. It sets up a knockout in the 5th. Tunney is better than Floyd but no Cassius. Even with a long count Gene don't beat it this time.

he grant · 12-09-2011, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Tunney is so ridiculously overrated h2h at heavyweight.

Only tunney( whom 1. Never fought a black man 2. never fought a big heavyweight 3. never fought a big man who knew how to fight) would get this much respect against Liston.

Ridiculous

Funny how you rationalize ... Rocky , your idol, never fought a big, strong, powerful heavyweight in his prime but you have no problem rating him among the very best .. nothing like consistency ... I guess he is exempt because the faded fighters he defeated were black , a key determining factor in your universe... Dempsey was a quarter Indian, does that help ?

Your opinions are the most emotional and biased of any consistent poster on this site. Not a bad thing but an obvious one ..

SuzieQ49 · 12-09-2011, 08:27 AM

Who the fuck did Tunney ever fight at heavyweight that makes you think he can handle a Sonny Liston? Sonny Liston would have blasted out a 1927 Jack Dempsey in 1 round. When did Tunney ever fight a man with a 84" reach/ATG left jab? When did tunney ever fight a powerful 215lb man with sledgehammer power in both fists. What's gonna happen to Tunney when he gets hit by Liston's left hook?

I'm literally laughing at these predictions...Liston by knockout

SuzieQ49 · 12-09-2011, 08:33 AM

How would Tunney have done against prime versions of Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, and Floyd Patterson? Highly doubt he goes 3-0.

DonBoxer · 12-09-2011, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SenorRamirez

like ali ?
ali win by poins vs liston ?

he was a master of footwork ?
maybe vs the bear-footwork of dampsey,but liston was mutch faster than jack

yea, im know that my english is shit......

Are you suggesting that Tunney only had good footwork in the Dempsey fights?

Its not like Tunney could keep away from much faster fighters at light heavy, is it?

he grant · 12-09-2011, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuzieQ49

Who the fuck did Tunney ever fight at heavyweight that makes you think he can handle a Sonny Liston? Sonny Liston would have blasted out a 1927 Jack Dempsey in 1 round. When did Tunney ever fight a man with a 84" reach/ATG left jab? When did tunney ever fight a powerful 215lb man with sledgehammer power in both fists. What's gonna happen to Tunney when he gets hit by Liston's left hook?

I'm literally laughing at these predictions...Liston by knockout

I know you are and that's what I find amusing ...

You know a lot of trivia but never factor styles into your predictions .. if you did you would not make the Liston/Dempsey analysis which is completely irrelevant based on the match up .. Liston had big trouble with light heavyweight Marshall because of his speed .. he won a dull decision over Eddie Machen but really could not do anything with him because he was frustrated by his movement ... the 84" reach meant nothing because when a very talented guy went side to side Liston's weaknesses were exposed ... No need to go into what a 22 year old, not even prime Ali did to him ...

I agree Liston blasts out a Dempsey, a Marciano, a Frazier ... they come straight in and fight into his strengths ... while Sonny had more game than a Foreman he had limitations that could be exploited ...

As far as Tunney goes you either believe in him or you don't .... to me his speed, stamina, heart, chin and conditioning are proven ... he also had a warrior's heart and tremendous intellect ... I see his speed giving Liston lot's of trouble ...

Duodenum · 12-09-2011, 11:48 AM

Machen, Whitehurst 2X, Summerlin 2X, Marty Marshall 2X, Joiner and Leotis all proved it was possible to weigh under 200 pounds and still be able to survive against Liston, at all times throughout Sonny's career. Patterson did not have great mobility, a suspect chin, and fought two incredibly stupid "deer in the headlights" fights with Liston. Gene was better than Machen, Whitehurst, Summerlin, Marshall and Martin put together, and far smarter than Floyd when Patterson took on Sonny.

Liston had 190 pound Whitehurst seriously stunned with a hard right at the outset of round nine in their October 1958 rematch, yet failed to take him out for the second time that year. Liston-Whitehurst II and Liston-Machen have both been on youtube for everybody to scrutinize. Sonny is not taking the clever and brilliant Tunney out. This one would go to the scorecards, and I just don't see Liston having an answer for Gene's overall speed and elusiveness. Tunney's jab was much faster, and he was quick enough to elude Sonny's firepower. If Liston somehow did manage to hurt him, Gene recuperated quickly enough and boxed smartly enough to weather whatever storm Sonny tried following up with.

apollack · 12-09-2011, 11:54 AM

For what it is worth, Ali once watched video of Tunney and said he was the best of all the old timers. Naturally, I imagine that is because Tunney reminded him of himself.

Rock0052 · 12-09-2011, 12:09 PM

At the risk of coming off blasphemous, I think Tunney outjabs Liston in a H2H fight due to the speed difference involved. A jackhammer jab like Liston had is perfect when he was fighting less mobile boxers or straightforward guys who couldn't get out of the way, but I don't think he's going to be able to catch Gene with it.

12-08-2011, 07:30 PM	#46
he grant Historian/Film Maker East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 6,478 vCash: 1000	Re: gene tunney vs liston.... No one is saying Tunney's a lock but to claim he was completely not vetted is wrong ... I repeat a 31 year Dempsey was still way faster than Liston and that Dempsey could barely touch him and when he did with half a dozen bone crushing shots Tunney survived ... Liston's hige reach ment little v.s. a 22 year old Ali because he was completely lost by Ali's foot speed .. I personally do not think the 22 year old Ali was any better than a prime Tunney .. It is a very interesting match up of styles ..
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12-09-2011, 01:11 AM	#48
SuzieQ49 Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston, Ma Posts: 12,961 vCash: 1000	Re: gene tunney vs liston.... Tunney is so ridiculously overrated h2h at heavyweight. Only tunney( whom 1. Never fought a black man 2. never fought a big heavyweight 3. never fought a big man who knew how to fight) would get this much respect against Liston. Ridiculous
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12-09-2011, 01:26 AM	#49
Ylem Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,413 vCash: 1000	Re: gene tunney vs liston.... tunney would pwn liston. like ali had crap foot work as far as technique wise it was fast but he was making mistakes, hed be moving the wrong foot first bouncing all around and find himself off balance. at this point in time when ali finds himself off balance liston was able to catch him. if you watch the fight most the time when liston catches ali its because ali had made a foot work mistake seconds earlier, not because of listons pressure or cutting off the ring but because of alis mistake. tunney was a master of footwork, liston wouldnt be able to catch him near as much as he was able to catch ali and with the few times liston does catch him its not like tunney had a glass jaw. i give this to tunney on UD.
Top

12-09-2011, 08:04 AM	#52
Liechhardt Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 757 vCash: 500	Re: gene tunney vs liston.... Liston's stiff long jab is the deciding factor. It sets up a knockout in the 5th. Tunney is better than Floyd but no Cassius. Even with a long count Gene don't beat it this time.
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12-09-2011, 08:27 AM	#54
SuzieQ49 Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston, Ma Posts: 12,961 vCash: 1000	Re: gene tunney vs liston.... Who the fuck did Tunney ever fight at heavyweight that makes you think he can handle a Sonny Liston? Sonny Liston would have blasted out a 1927 Jack Dempsey in 1 round. When did Tunney ever fight a man with a 84" reach/ATG left jab? When did tunney ever fight a powerful 215lb man with sledgehammer power in both fists. What's gonna happen to Tunney when he gets hit by Liston's left hook? I'm literally laughing at these predictions...Liston by knockout
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12-09-2011, 08:33 AM	#55
SuzieQ49 Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Boston, Ma Posts: 12,961 vCash: 1000	Re: gene tunney vs liston.... How would Tunney have done against prime versions of Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, and Floyd Patterson? Highly doubt he goes 3-0.
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12-09-2011, 11:48 AM	#58
Duodenum Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,700 vCash: 1000	Re: gene tunney vs liston.... Machen, Whitehurst 2X, Summerlin 2X, Marty Marshall 2X, Joiner and Leotis all proved it was possible to weigh under 200 pounds and still be able to survive against Liston, at all times throughout Sonny's career. Patterson did not have great mobility, a suspect chin, and fought two incredibly stupid "deer in the headlights" fights with Liston. Gene was better than Machen, Whitehurst, Summerlin, Marshall and Martin put together, and far smarter than Floyd when Patterson took on Sonny. Liston had 190 pound Whitehurst seriously stunned with a hard right at the outset of round nine in their October 1958 rematch, yet failed to take him out for the second time that year. Liston-Whitehurst II and Liston-Machen have both been on youtube for everybody to scrutinize. Sonny is not taking the clever and brilliant Tunney out. This one would go to the scorecards, and I just don't see Liston having an answer for Gene's overall speed and elusiveness. Tunney's jab was much faster, and he was quick enough to elude Sonny's firepower. If Liston somehow did manage to hurt him, Gene recuperated quickly enough and boxed smartly enough to weather whatever storm Sonny tried following up with.
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12-09-2011, 11:54 AM	#59
apollack Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,402 vCash: 1000	Re: gene tunney vs liston.... For what it is worth, Ali once watched video of Tunney and said he was the best of all the old timers. Naturally, I imagine that is because Tunney reminded him of himself.
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12-09-2011, 12:09 PM	#60
Rock0052 Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 8,365 vCash: 75	Re: gene tunney vs liston.... At the risk of coming off blasphemous, I think Tunney outjabs Liston in a H2H fight due to the speed difference involved. A jackhammer jab like Liston had is perfect when he was fighting less mobile boxers or straightforward guys who couldn't get out of the way, but I don't think he's going to be able to catch Gene with it.
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