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Old 12-13-2011, 05:46 PM   #31
round15
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

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Originally Posted by salty trunks View Post
I dont really buy that. I think Frazier was always too small for Foreman with that fighting style. The things that we knew Foreman was going to do were terrible for Frazier and his style. Frazier would have never been able to be competitive with Foreman. You cant use Ali as a comparison for anything when discussing these two.
You are correct.

You really can't use Ali as a comparison when discussing the Frazier and Foreman fights because George is a completely different kind of fighter and puncher. What can be compared is Frazier's physical conditioning and mental state between his first fight with Ali and his title loss to Foreman and rematch. There's no questioning that Foreman didn't fight the same conditioned fighter from 68-FOTC.

I don't think Frazier was too small for Foreman, just far from looking his best and disinterested. Frazier was known for his come forward style, but he didn't always just walk right into his opponents power range and try to beat them down. He countered, used his feet better and punched off the angles when pressured himself. He did this against Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena in their rematch. Against Foreman, Joe thought that he could just out-smart and out-bully the bully and instead he got bullied around himself.

I believe Frazier would have been able to be competitive against Foreman. Combine the manner and conditioning in which he fought Chuvalo and the way he fought Foreman the second time. What you likely get is the best version of Frazier who could box conventionally using a jab, straight right and not so much of his famous left hook. In fact, I'd say Frazier mentally wasn't at his best against Ali the first time because he tried to angrilly knock him out with every punch and neglected his right hand. Frazier was looking for a signature poster hook instead of boxing Ali with both hands. That was his obsession with Ali and beating him.

He never treated Foreman with the same passion and dedication to training.
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:12 PM   #32
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

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Originally Posted by round15 View Post
You are correct.

You really can't use Ali as a comparison when discussing the Frazier and Foreman fights because George is a completely different kind of fighter and puncher. What can be compared is Frazier's physical conditioning and mental state between his first fight with Ali and his title loss to Foreman and rematch. There's no questioning that Foreman didn't fight the same conditioned fighter from 68-FOTC.

I don't think Frazier was too small for Foreman, just far from looking his best and disinterested. Frazier was known for his come forward style, but he didn't always just walk right into his opponents power range and try to beat them down. He countered, used his feet better and punched off the angles when pressured himself. He did this against Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis and Bonavena in their rematch. Against Foreman, Joe thought that he could just out-smart and out-bully the bully and instead he got bullied around himself.

I believe Frazier would have been able to be competitive against Foreman. Combine the manner and conditioning in which he fought Chuvalo and the way he fought Foreman the second time. What you likely get is the best version of Frazier who could box conventionally using a jab, straight right and not so much of his famous left hook. In fact, I'd say Frazier mentally wasn't at his best against Ali the first time because he tried to angrilly knock him out with every punch and neglected his right hand. Frazier was looking for a signature poster hook instead of boxing Ali with both hands. That was his obsession with Ali and beating him.

He never treated Foreman with the same passion and dedication to training.
An excellent post R15! It is well thought out and I agree 100%
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:15 PM   #33
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

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Get this straight...that's just feel-good bull**** from the humble old George Foreman...the young George Foreman was "petrified" of no one!!
I doubt that. George Foreman, at any age, is just a guy. I'm sure George was plenty nervous or fearful against Frazier and probably many others. I bet he was scared of Holyfield as well. You don't go from fighting bums and has-beens and never-was type of guys to taking on a finely-tuned, highly-skilled, elite heavyweight without getting butterflies!
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:35 PM   #34
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

Because "Super" Joe Cooper wasn't ref that night.
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:53 PM   #35
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

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Funny, considering that Foreman always said he was petrified of Frazier.
He probably literaly was.

Going into the fight, he was prety darn untested, and Frazier was viewed as the invincible wrecking machine.

It would actualy be more surprizing if he had not been afraid of
Frazier.

It is only in hindsight that the idea of him being afraid of Frazier sounds strange.

Oh, and in the real world, nobody actualy gave Foreman a chance at the time.
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Old 12-13-2011, 07:58 PM   #36
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

It's pretty clear to see that all that shoving foreman was employing messed fraizer up. Foreman kept him at range and just bombed him. I'm not sure if all the pushing would be allowed today.
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:28 PM   #37
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

there's a reason you dont try to 'swarm' a slugger. It's like walking into the jaws of a lion.
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Old 12-13-2011, 09:56 PM   #38
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

You're forgetting that lots of guys have successfully swarmed sluggers. In fact some have made a career out of it.
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Old 12-13-2011, 11:07 PM   #39
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

if they fought 100 times frazier would lose 100 times. It was just a case of frazier facing physical advantages that he could not overcome. Foreman was too big, too strong and too hard a puncher for frazier who could only fight george one way and that's coming forward (which is how he fought everyone).

Styles make fights and frazier was made to order for foreman who would always push him off and land those booming uppercuts and hooks that would knock him silly. Just a bad matchup physically for "smokin Joe".
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Old 12-14-2011, 03:55 AM   #40
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

Frazier thought he was going to walk through Foreman is main reason. Another is that he almost totaly slacked off after cashing in on Ali fight, he was out partying, performing with his music group, and had let self go a bit. His two previous bouts should have been easy, but weren't. Foreman would likley beat Frazier at his bes due to styles, but way frazier approached fight made it a blowout.
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Old 12-14-2011, 04:35 AM   #41
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

The prime, still hungry Frazier: the magnificient fighting machine who extinguished Chuvalo, Ellis, Quarry, Foster and gave gave Ali his first "L" was a WAY different animal than the softer, satisfied, less dedicated warrior who beat Terry Daniels, Stander, lost to Foreman, then had his eye closed and at one point possibly his knees momentarily buckled by the large but modest punching Joe Bugner later in 1973.

I remember that way before Foreman's comeback Frazier was regarded historically as the better fighter despite the two defeats he suffered. I still would favor Foreman against the magnificent version of Frazier. Mainly because Joe tended to be a slow starter and Foreman could inflict irreversible damage in the early going and Frazier would be in deep trouble once again. However, if Foreman was too sloppy, Frazier somehow survives his initial onslaught, and Joe starts to smoke then a tiring Foreman has a real problem on his hands. Then an exhausted Foreman gets chewed up by the buzzsaw and bows out in about 8 or 9 rounds.
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:43 AM   #42
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

Because he didn't have to look for him like he did against Ali. Frazier was right in front of him for as long as the fight lasted.

Ali's "rope-a-dope" was a brilliant move to tire Foreman and worked to perfection.
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Old 12-14-2011, 10:58 AM   #43
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
It was mostly styles combined with the right physical attributes.. No, Foreman was not a "better" fighter overall than Frazier... Only a bad match for him head to head... Joe's bobbing and weaving style was great for slipping the jab and creating an opportunity for landing that left hook, but against a big puncher who bombarded him with hooks and upper cuts at close range, it was terrible chemisty... he was also in the ring with one of the hardest punchers of all time, with the strength to come forward and bully him....
Spot on, mm
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:17 PM   #44
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

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Frazier thought he was going to walk through Foreman is main reason. Another is that he almost totaly slacked off after cashing in on Ali fight, he was out partying, performing with his music group, and had let self go a bit. His two previous bouts should have been easy, but weren't. Foreman would likley beat Frazier at his bes due to styles, but way frazier approached fight made it a blowout.
Exactly.

Joe looked horrible against Ron Stander and some even say Terry Daniels didn't deserve a title shot. What amazes me when thinking about Frazier's mindset from that time is that he practically ignored Foreman as a contender. He too was good enough to win the gold medal in the 68 olympics but Joe thought nothing of it. Frazier believed the hype that Foreman was too slow, inexperienced and wouldn't be able to handle his pressure and pace. Futch and Durham believed that too.

Again, hard to say if Foreman would beat Frazier every time they fought. Prime for prime, nobody can honestly say despite the ever present opinions that Foreman would beat any version of Frazier. In fairness to Frazier and with respect to his own undoing, George has a much, much tougher fight with the 1968 to FOTC conditioned fighter. I wouldn't put it past Frazier to outwork George after tasting the canvas 3 or 4 times in the first couple of rounds. Joe's toughness and workrate could see him through to the middle rounds where George's conditioning becomes a factor.
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:07 PM   #45
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Default Re: Why did Foreman find turning Frazier into mincemeat so easy?

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Exactly.

Joe looked horrible against Ron Stander and some even say Terry Daniels didn't deserve a title shot. What amazes me when thinking about Frazier's mindset from that time is that he practically ignored Foreman as a contender. He too was good enough to win the gold medal in the 68 olympics but Joe thought nothing of it. Frazier believed the hype that Foreman was too slow, inexperienced and wouldn't be able to handle his pressure and pace. Futch and Durham believed that too.

Again, hard to say if Foreman would beat Frazier every time they fought. Prime for prime, nobody can honestly say despite the ever present opinions that Foreman would beat any version of Frazier. In fairness to Frazier and with respect to his own undoing, George has a much, much tougher fight with the 1968 to FOTC conditioned fighter. I wouldn't put it past Frazier to outwork George after tasting the canvas 3 or 4 times in the first couple of rounds. Joe's toughness and workrate could see him through to the middle rounds where George's conditioning becomes a factor.
And it's funny how George Foreman gets labeled as this giant slaughterer of short, come-ahed, aggressive types of fighters based simply off his two Ko's of a non-prime Joe Frazier. He beats Joe Frazier twice, so in every hypothetical match-up involving a Joe Frazier style of fighter, George automatically wins!? Foreman vs. Tyson? Oh, George was a monster against short sluggers! Foreman by Ko. Foreman against Tua/Marciano? The same. George always beats those types of fighters because he beat a past it Joe Frazier twice! I think that's crazy! George might well have beaten those guys, but I don't think it's an absolute.
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