Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > European Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: How do you rate today's HW division fighters H2H with past Heavies?
As good or better than it ever was 31 15.98%
Good, but not the best 28 14.43%
About average 37 19.07%
Poor 61 31.44%
Abysmal 37 19.07%
Voters: 194. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-15-2012, 04:56 AM   #271
Dave Sands
Ebony & Ivory :)
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 52
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

No.
Dave Sands is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 03-15-2012, 09:45 AM   #272
Bubby
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,285
vCash: 500
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubby View Post
Let's start proving how good or bad todays division is...

Ring magazine's top ten of 2012:

Champion: Wladimir Klitschko, 35yo, 6'6", 243lbs, 81"reach, 56-3-0 record,
RING/IBF/WBO/IBO/WBA champion,

#1 Vitali Klitschko, 40yo, 6'7", 250lbs, 82"reach, 44-2-0 record,
WBC champion, never knocked down, never behind in a fight.

#2 Alexand Povetkin, 32yo, 6'2", 225lbs, 76"reach, 23-0-0 record,
has beaten two other fighters in the top ten.

#3 Tomasz Adamek, 35yo, 6'2" 216lbs, 76"reach, 44-2-0 record,
has beaten no other top ten fighters, former LHW/Cruiser champion.

#4 Eddie Chambers, 30yo, 6'1", 210lbs, 76"reach, 36-2-0 record,
only lost to two other top ten fighters.

#5 Alexander Dimitrernko, 29yo, 6'7", 255lbs, 83"reach, 32-1-0 record,
only lost to #4.

#6 Robert Helenius, 28yo, 6'6", 240lbs, 80"reach, 17-0-0 record,

#7 Denis Boytsov, 26yo, 6'1", 215lbs, 30-0-0 record,

#8 Rusland Chagaev, 33yo, 6'0", 225lbs, 74"reach, 28-2-1 record,
former champion, only lost to other top ten fighters.

#9 Chris Arreola, 30yo, 6'4", 245lbs, 77"reach, 35-2-0 record,
only lost to other top ten fighters.

#10 Kubrat Pulev, 30yo, 6'5", 250lbs, 15-0-0.

Now we can compare this top ten with past top ten's and see how good it actually is..
The Ring magazine's top 10 from 1997.

Champion: vacant.

#1 Evander Holyfield.

#2 Lennox Lewis.

#3 Michael Moorer.

#4 Ray Mercer.

#5 Tim Witherspoon, Tim was by now over 40 years old. Lost to both Mercer and Larry Donald in 97.

#6 George Foreman, 48 year old 265lb Foreman would not have another fight after 97.

#7 Shannon Briggs, 26yo, 6'4" 225lbs, 80"reach, 29-1-0 record.
Briggs beat Foreman.

#8 Ike Ibeabuchi, 24yo, 6'2", 235lbs, 76"reach, 18-0-0 record.
Ike was a promising young heavyweight who went to prison.

#9 David Tua, See my earlier post. Lost to Ibeabuchi.

#10 David Izon, 29yo, 6'3" 230lbs, 83"reach, 20-2-0 record.
Izon lost to Tua..
Bubby is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2012, 04:23 PM   #273
Darien
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hungary
Posts: 410
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Sorry, I didn't read through the whole thread so there might be some ideas that have already been mentioned. IMO the HW division as a whole is very poor. And it's not that there's no talent: there definitely is. But ther are no contenders, no real competiton for the champions. The two Klits are just too dominant. They give noone even the slightest of chance. What's more, the way they fight is just awkward. Strange robotic movement, non-existant footwork: nothing like a boxer. Sure, they are brutally effective, but definitely not attractive to watch. I don't know how they would fare against the past greats. They might have a good chance against anyone, but still that does not make them exciting. And the only meaningful titlefight will never happen for obvious reasons. So yeah... pretty bad.
Darien is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2012, 09:29 PM   #274
Nosbor
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: You hung with me, I'm the Bakersfield Chimp!
Posts: 2,675
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

People use "robotic" as code for White. Despite the fact that Wlad has textbook footwork and punches he still get's labeled as "robotic". Vitaly in his early fights, up to the injury loss against Bryd did tend to clank a bit but has ironed out much of that during his title run in 2004 and his comeback.

Nobody ever called LL "robotic" even though he was way slower of foot and more stationary than either Klitschko.
Nosbor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 02:58 PM   #275
piscator
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darien View Post
Sorry, I didn't read through the whole thread so there might be some ideas that have already been mentioned. IMO the HW division as a whole is very poor. And it's not that there's no talent: there definitely is. But ther are no contenders, no real competiton for the champions. The two Klits are just too dominant. They give noone even the slightest of chance. What's more, the way they fight is just awkward. Strange robotic movement, non-existant footwork: nothing like a boxer. Sure, they are brutally effective, but definitely not attractive to watch. I don't know how they would fare against the past greats. They might have a good chance against anyone, but still that does not make them exciting. And the only meaningful titlefight will never happen for obvious reasons. So yeah... pretty bad.
I agree with a lot of what you say.

However, could I ask you a question? How did you vote in the poll? Did you answer "poor" because you don't like the way the division is managed?

The poll question was, "How do you rate today's HW division fighters H2H with past Heavies?". A "poor" response wouldn't agree with your statement that there "definitely is" talent in today's HW division. Please let me know if that's the way you voted as I have a sneaking suspicion that's the way a lot of voters voted. They didn't rate the fighters, they rated the management of the division as a whole, which was not the question.
piscator is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 03:48 PM   #276
Bubby
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,285
vCash: 500
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubby View Post
Let's start proving how good or bad todays division is...

Ring magazine's top ten of 2012:

Champion: Wladimir Klitschko, 35yo, 6'6", 243lbs, 81"reach, 56-3-0 record,
RING/IBF/WBO/IBO/WBA champion,

#1 Vitali Klitschko, 40yo, 6'7", 250lbs, 82"reach, 44-2-0 record,
WBC champion, never knocked down, never behind in a fight.

#2 Alexand Povetkin, 32yo, 6'2", 225lbs, 76"reach, 23-0-0 record,
has beaten two other fighters in the top ten.

#3 Tomasz Adamek, 35yo, 6'2" 216lbs, 76"reach, 44-2-0 record,
has beaten no other top ten fighters, former LHW/Cruiser champion.

#4 Eddie Chambers, 30yo, 6'1", 210lbs, 76"reach, 36-2-0 record,
only lost to two other top ten fighters.

#5 Alexander Dimitrernko, 29yo, 6'7", 255lbs, 83"reach, 32-1-0 record,
only lost to #4.

#6 Robert Helenius, 28yo, 6'6", 240lbs, 80"reach, 17-0-0 record,

#7 Denis Boytsov, 26yo, 6'1", 215lbs, 30-0-0 record,

#8 Rusland Chagaev, 33yo, 6'0", 225lbs, 74"reach, 28-2-1 record,
former champion, only lost to other top ten fighters.

#9 Chris Arreola, 30yo, 6'4", 245lbs, 77"reach, 35-2-0 record,
only lost to other top ten fighters.

#10 Kubrat Pulev, 30yo, 6'5", 250lbs, 15-0-0.

Now we can compare this top ten with past top ten's and see how good it actually is..
The Ring magazine's top ten of 1998.

Champion: Vacant.

#1 Evander Holyfield.

#2 Lennox Lewis.

#3 Michael Grant, 28yo, 6'7", 245lbs, 86"reach, 28-0-0 record.
Grant shows just where todays division stands against the past.
Michael was a top contender from 97 to 2000 and never lost a fight in the 90s. But today even tho Grant is only 39yo (younger then Foreman, Witherspoon, Holmes and many more who were successful in the 90s) is unable to compete with the weakest of the top 10 now.

#4 Michael Moorer, didn't even fight from 97 until 2000, but was still in the top 10.

#5 shannon Briggs, see my 97 post.

#6 Chris Byrd, 28yo, 6'0", 210lbs, 74"reach, 26-0-0 record.
Byrd was another top fighter from the 90's who proved unable to compete today.

#7 Ike Ibeabuchi, see my 98 post.

#8 David Tua, Tua is another fighter who was successful in the 90's but cant even make top 20 today.

#9 Anderew Golota, Golota is another fighter (tho still younger than Foreman in the 90's) who has been unable to beat the weakest today.

#10 Hasim Rahman, 40yo, 6'3", 235lbs, 82"reach, 29-1-0 record.
Again, Rahman is still many years younger than Foreman when Foreman won a world title in the 90s. And even Larry Holmes when he also won a world title. But Rahman cant make a small dent today...
Bubby is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 04:50 PM   #277
ludwig
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,149
vCash: 500
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Absurd that Grant could be #3 in 1998. Who had he beaten to get there? The Ring may be better than the ABCs but it's hardly free from bias.

Why aren't Mike Tyson and Herbie Hide in this ranking?

Looking over the list it looks like 1998 was a weak era.
ludwig is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 06:17 PM   #278
volkan
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,172
vCash: 86
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
Absurd that Grant could be #3 in 1998. Who had he beaten to get there? The Ring may be better than the ABCs but it's hardly free from bias.

Why aren't Mike Tyson and Herbie Hide in this ranking?

Looking over the list it looks like 1998 was a weak era.

Tyson got his license withdrew and was banned from boxing for bitting Holyfield.
volkan is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2012, 06:58 PM   #279
piscator
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubby View Post
The Ring magazine's top ten of 1998.

#9 Anderew Golota, Golota is another fighter (tho still younger than Foreman in the 90's) who has been unable to beat the weakest today.
Golata was a great fighter, but a bit of a nut. He got disqualified twice in fights against Riddick Bowe when he was way ahead on the score card. He had power, balance and speed. Just couldn't quit hitting Bowe in the nuts and finally got DQ'd ........TWICE. If he could have connected with a good shrink, he might have been an ATG, IMO.
piscator is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2012, 09:55 AM   #280
Bubby
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,285
vCash: 500
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ludwig View Post
Absurd that Grant could be #3 in 1998. Who had he beaten to get there? The Ring may be better than the ABCs but it's hardly free from bias.

Why aren't Mike Tyson and Herbie Hide in this ranking?

Looking over the list it looks like 1998 was a weak era.
Actually Grant was a top contender in the 90s. He knocked off David Izon (TKO5)who was ranked by the Ring. Also Obed Sullivan (TKO9) who was ranked by all the ABC's at the time, plus he also added Lou Savarese and Andrew Golota in 1999. So Grant earned the #3 spot in 98. It just shows the late 90's was not the super "era" its being made out to be by some members.
Bubby is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2012, 03:29 PM   #281
Darien
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hungary
Posts: 410
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosbor View Post
People use "robotic" as code for White. Despite the fact that Wlad has textbook footwork and punches he still get's labeled as "robotic". Vitaly in his early fights, up to the injury loss against Bryd did tend to clank a bit but has ironed out much of that during his title run in 2004 and his comeback.

Nobody ever called LL "robotic" even though he was way slower of foot and more stationary than either Klitschko.
Nope, robotic does not refer to skin colour in my textbook. You're right, Wlad has a much better footwork, still he also tends to use a strangely wide stance. That's probably some balance issue, but he has improved a lot with Steward. But that wasn't really the point of my comment.
Darien is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2012, 03:49 PM   #282
Darien
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hungary
Posts: 410
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by piscator View Post
I agree with a lot of what you say.

However, could I ask you a question? How did you vote in the poll? Did you answer "poor" because you don't like the way the division is managed?

The poll question was, "How do you rate today's HW division fighters H2H with past Heavies?". A "poor" response wouldn't agree with your statement that there "definitely is" talent in today's HW division. Please let me know if that's the way you voted as I have a sneaking suspicion that's the way a lot of voters voted. They didn't rate the fighters, they rated the management of the division as a whole, which was not the question.
Yep, I voted "poor" and you're right, I misinterpreted the question. H2H the Klitschko's would probably be more than a match for any past great and guys like Haye, Povetkin, Chagaev would most likely be competitive in any era. When people call the division poor it's usually reference to the lack of excitement in championship fights.
Darien is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2012, 06:00 PM   #283
superman1692
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: London, England
Posts: 399
vCash: 500
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosbor View Post
People use "robotic" as code for White. Despite the fact that Wlad has textbook footwork and punches he still get's labeled as "robotic". Vitaly in his early fights, up to the injury loss against Bryd did tend to clank a bit but has ironed out much of that during his title run in 2004 and his comeback.

Nobody ever called LL "robotic" even though he was way slower of foot and more stationary than either Klitschko.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
superman1692 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 04:42 AM   #284
piscator
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 150
vCash: 500
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darien View Post
Yep, I voted "poor" and you're right, I misinterpreted the question. H2H the Klitschko's would probably be more than a match for any past great and guys like Haye, Povetkin, Chagaev would most likely be competitive in any era. When people call the division poor it's usually reference to the lack of excitement in championship fights.
Thanks, Darien. I think I should have structured the poll differently as I think a lot of people probably misinterpreted the question.

Cheers
piscator is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2012, 10:11 PM   #285
Nosbor
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: You hung with me, I'm the Bakersfield Chimp!
Posts: 2,675
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Has the Heavyweight Division ever been this Good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by superman1692 View Post
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Photo does not show for me. I see your location is London so I am guessing it was expressing dissapproval with the text you enlarged?
Nosbor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > European Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013