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View Poll Results: Bigger career achievements
darius achieved more 16 48.48%
Ottke achieved more 10 30.30%
They more or less were on the same level 7 21.21%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-07-2007, 03:47 PM   #31
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Odo
Well spoken,axe!

I have seen a couple of hometown decisions in Germany like Sturm's title win against Velasquez,but neither would I say that Germany is worse than other nations.IMO countries like Italy,or Spain are much worse.
Of course blatant robberies like May vs Serrat,or Grigorian vs Zegan have taken place in Germany,too.
However,whenever a fightes fights on foreign soil he for sure knows that a close fight isnt enough to have another victory in his fight record.The rules of this game are no secret.
Dubious decisons have happened in a lot of countries.Germany isnt worse than the USA,or England,but much better than some other important box markets.
Agreed, Grigorian vs Zegan was a blatant robbery, then Hoffmann got a few gifted decisions along the way, Kotiev Santos the first was a robbery, the may fight you mentioned which if I remember correctly took place in eastern germany and saw the crowd booing the "winner" quite vehemently and there undoubtedly were several more. Incidentally, Velasco vs Sturm was definitely not one of them but anyway, no one s disputing there have been crooked decisions
but

a) considering there have been hundreds of title bouts staged here over the years the percentage of those one could call a robbery is considerably much smaller than the rumour has made out to be and
b) thats not exactly the topic of this thread, its a tad sad people keep attempting to hijack the thread and turn in into that direction. Though its valid where it concerns one of the two fighters in question, along the line that an alleged or genuine gifted win either of them was granted would in effect tarnish his (resp.) legacy
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Old 07-07-2007, 04:04 PM   #32
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

Despite the fact i myself voted they were about the same level I cant hide the fact Im rather thrilled Darius is winning in this poll Go darius go
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Old 07-07-2007, 04:44 PM   #33
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

i am going for D/M.

D/M was a true fighter willing to put it all on the line over many years , giving everything to get his opponent out of there and had a great will to win , willing to suck it up, to give it.

opposition wise , technically ottke might nick it.

but why i would not vote for ottke is that he new the scorecards in every fight and used his style to fight according to the scorecards.

for example the ottke v larson fight.
very boring, herdly 2 to 3 pounches landed by either boxer per round.

come up to the 12th when anyone who does not know the scorecard must think its very close and what happens, ottke does not throw or land a single punch in the 12th happy to see out the round on his feet .

D/M would have gone out all guns blazing, whether he was up on the cards or not.

to much of ottke`s career to me was not the bad decisions, i had brewster winning the 1st fight and reid winning, but the fact that it was like a poker player knowing all his opponents cards and knowing when to fold and when to bid.

basically ottke had a stacked deck, whereas /dm IMO was a true warrior .
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Old 07-08-2007, 04:13 PM   #34
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merry
Thats a very strong point you made there, Axe. Initially I was leaning towards DM as well not surprisingly as he had always been my fav fighter.

When trying to be objective some other aspects come to mind as well

Overall Ottke probably fought more top tenners than DM did who admittedly fought his share of - lets call them less than stellar title challengers for want of a better term. Ottke fought and beat Tate twice, Brewer twice, Mundine, L****n, Johnson, Butler, Starie, Marcussen. One could add reid here whom he officially beat though the win was dubious. Thats lots of former champs and some others who went on to become champs after he had beaten them.

DM almost unified the division when he beat Hill (3 out of 4 major belts) but was stripped of two oif them instantly, never defended WBA nor IBF. Ottke only unified two belts but then again he went on to defend the two of them several times against strong comp. DM had more title defenses, Ottke slightly fewer but against the more demanding opponents. DM won a title at cruiser he never defended, Ottke started his pro career at 175 then dropped down to 168 in his 10th pro fight or so, never won titles in different divisions.

All in all a toss up for me
Looking over Ottke's resume it does look a litte closer for me now, on paper at least. I do think he may have fought more top 10 opponents, but with DM facing more top 5 opponents. I still say DM accomplished more but that is just my opinion, others are welcome to theirs. And I do agree with you regarding the Mitchell fight, the American came on strong late but only because Sven already had the fight legitimately in the bag and got on his bike.

And fair enough, some of the things we have seen in the States have been truly disgraceful, the Schulz fight for one, Lewis vs Holyfield for another, the list goes on.

By the way, I remember discussing the Barber fight with you a while back. I found a link to a Ring mag archive that confirms he was top 5 going into the DM fight: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

These are the end of 1993 ratings, Barber was #5. He beat Piper in early '94 and Charles Williams (rated at #4) went down to 168 and lost to James Toney, so when he faced DM in September Barber would have been at least #4 in the world, according to Ring.
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Old 07-08-2007, 04:19 PM   #35
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axe
Looking over Ottke's resume it does look a litte closer for me now, on paper at least. I do think he may have fought more top 10 opponents, but with DM facing more top 5 opponents. I still say DM accomplished more but that is just my opinion, others are welcome to theirs. And I do agree with you regarding the Mitchell fight, the American came on strong late but only because Sven already had the fight legitimately in the bag and got on his bike.

And fair enough, some of the things we have seen in the States have been truly disgraceful, the Schulz fight for one, Lewis vs Holyfield for another, the list goes on.

By the way, I remember discussing the Barber fight with you a while back. I found a link to a Ring mag archive that confirms he was top 5 going into the DM fight: [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

These are the end of 1993 ratings, Barber was #5. He beat Piper in early '94 and Charles Williams (rated at #4) went down to 168 and lost to James Toney, so when he faced DM in September Barber would have been at least #4 in the world, according to Ring.

Well balanced post there, as usual axe matey. Interesting stuff you digged out concerning Barber. I remember he also took the unbeaten tag off Andrea Magi, the only one ever to be able to floor Maske throughout the german´s entire pro career.
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Old 07-08-2007, 04:20 PM   #36
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merry
Despite the fact i myself voted they were about the same level I cant hide the fact Im rather thrilled Darius is winning in this poll Go darius go


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Old 07-08-2007, 04:26 PM   #37
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean
i am going for D/M.

D/M was a true fighter willing to put it all on the line over many years , giving everything to get his opponent out of there and had a great will to win , willing to suck it up, to give it.

opposition wise , technically ottke might nick it.

but why i would not vote for ottke is that he new the scorecards in every fight and used his style to fight according to the scorecards.

for example the ottke v larson fight.
very boring, herdly 2 to 3 pounches landed by either boxer per round.

come up to the 12th when anyone who does not know the scorecard must think its very close and what happens, ottke does not throw or land a single punch in the 12th happy to see out the round on his feet .

D/M would have gone out all guns blazing, whether he was up on the cards or not.

to much of ottke`s career to me was not the bad decisions, i had brewster winning the 1st fight and reid winning, but the fact that it was like a poker player knowing all his opponents cards and knowing when to fold and when to bid.

basically ottke had a stacked deck, whereas /dm IMO was a true warrior .
True what you said about Ottke knowing the scorecards, not sure if in all of his fights but seems in quite a few, cos that was something that was mentioned by the TV-commentators. Now, I ve often wondered if that was such unique in itself or maybe it wasnt and it is rather common, you sometimes hear that sort of stuff, when listening to whats been said in a corner during an interval, that a coach would tell his man "you re behind, you have to do something", one doesnt know if its just the coaches opinion or if he has checked with the judges scorecards.
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Old 07-08-2007, 04:39 PM   #38
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

dariusz was one of the greatest lightheavy-weight of all time. his style was always very specatacular and attractive to watch.

ottke was not as half as good. throwing some pitty-pat hands and running away. he has a very boring style.

so, no compare between both because dariusz would have beaten the **** out of him
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Old 07-11-2007, 04:45 PM   #39
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chemek
on paper Otthe achieved more I would say, but everyone who saw few fights of both know who is the better fighter for sure...
You ain't know **** about boxing man... Ottke would own Darius anytime , anywhere at any weight
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:35 PM   #40
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

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Originally Posted by Alonzo
You ain't know **** about boxing man... Ottke would own Darius anytime , anywhere at any weight
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:42 PM   #41
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Default Re: Darius and Ottke - compare their career achievements

According to me Darius. His performance against Hill was amazing. Tiger(Prime) vs RJJ(Prime) thread would be also interesting
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