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Old 06-20-2012, 08:30 PM   #481
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Originally Posted by stormy0 View Post
Boranbkk,

I fully agree with your last post, 100%. I love boxing as a sport and will always be a fan, but man, when I watch the life of a nak muay, I'm seriously blown away. It really is like the old school boxing world, where guys fought very regularly, champs had tune up fights in between title defenses, and it was common to see guys with 100's of fights. And as you said, if someone is fighting in Bangkok in any of the stadiums(Lumpinee, Rajadamnern, Omnoi, Channel 7), there are no easy fights.
I know Naruenat and Thongchai are closing in on their 40's and still fighting on the Bangkok circuit. To be fighting at that level for that long, is mindblowing. They're the Archie Moore's of Thai boxing.

I really do wish, how great it would be if it was institutionalized into the Thai fight world that all pro fighters undergo a decent education in investment, economics and money mangament.
These guys live hard lives, fight all their lives, and often times I hear/read stories that quite a few of em end up with not much to show for what they've sacrificed. I don't know the politics behind how the Thai fight scene is, but if Buakaw's recent troubles are indicative of how things or normally ran, that's a damn shame.


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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
I'm very surprised (and happy) that two fighters are the highest paid athletes in the world.

As far as saenchai getting paid more, it seems that the more someone fights the more they dilute their appeal to the public. They say it takes 6 months to promote a super fight, Pacquiao and Mayweather only have superfights. Thus 1 -2 fights a year. It sometimes as a fan, hard to follow all the fights saenchai has.

Look at top MMA fighters. none of the ufc champions except jones had more than 2 fights in 2011. MMA fighters used to compete more. this is the economic structure, its not the best for fans, not really the best for the fighters since it is such an exclusive club that get to achieve this status. But for the few fighters that can it seems their is no end to the amount of money they can make.

Seanchai is every bit as skilled as Mayweather or pac (perhaps morso). But Muaythai while probably being one of the most competitive combat sports, at least in the lower weightclasses, where Seanchai competes, doesnt have the right presentation to appeal to a global market on the scale that boxing and MMA does.

I gotta say though, I dont see saenchai as being one of those guys that has nothing at the end of his career. I imagine he will be in high demand after he decides to retire from competition.
Both good post guys.

Stormy, I’m sure you know that when I say Saenchai gets maybe 300,000 baht, 50% goes to the gym as standard in Thailand. Then a large % gets sent back home to the parents, figure what’s left! It's appalling. Imagine if you are a stadium undercard fighter fighting for 30,000 baht or a guy at Omnoi fighting for 10,000 baht or a guy fighting in the bars for 500 baht. It leaves you numb with rage, when you really see what goes on. I posted a rant by a so called progressive gym owner about his thoughts on changing the status quo; you should check it out to see what they are up against. (It’s in one of the Buakaw gets sued threads).

The majority of fighters are done by time they’re 24 or 25. You’re right most guys end up with nothing, maybe a little noodle stand on the street or a second rate karaoke bar on some back soi somewhere doubling up as a cheap brothel for local people, and they’re the lucky ones. Most however, become taxi drivers, go home and become farmers or gunmen in illegal casinos where a lot can wind up dead. Options are limited for a normal Thais let alone a man that’s been bred only to kick ass since he was 8! One gym I trained at did try to help by taking a % of the fighters purse and putting it in a savings account for the fighter, but I dread to think how that turned out when the gym struck hard times.

The even luckier ones manage to get out of the country and train abroad, which isn’t easy or secure financially. The very select few of maybe only 4 fighters Somluck, Samart, Khoasai and now possibly Buakaw get regular TV work.

I think you’re right Yaca about Saenchai, but reckon unless he has a business head he’ll go the route of training guys abroad probably in Singapore or somewhere not too far from home possibly in an MMA set up. Thais aren’t great long term travellers they tend to miss home too much.

The education of fighters you suggest Stormy is a great idea but will never ever happen in Thailand cos it'll cost someone something. Thailand is one of those places where so few have all the power and the power is purely financial that's why nothing ever changes. It's not in the interests of the rich to change anything as long as they keep getting richer. You can’t challenge the establishment if you ain't got no money. That's why Buakaw has become a bit of an icon for me, he did the unthinkably he challenged the establishment and got a victory no matter how small, it was still a victory. I can't ever recall a fighter in Thailand doing that and if he couldn’t do it no one could. He is the most internationally renowned Thai fighter ever due to the lucky timing of the rise of MMA and the rise of the internet. The MT scene is a very conservative almost ultra nationalist business that runs purely on money, well really gambling money. I've written alot about the way the scene works on here before so I won't go on too much, but don't hold your breath for any serious changes in the aftermath of the Buakaw settlement. It's set precedent of some kind which is important but it's gonna be a long hard road, and the truth is serious change could kill the sport in Thailand no matter how un just the system is and how many times it makes us barf.

I think the main difference MT has with boxing and MMA in terms of its financial structure is that it is built and exists solely for Thai gamblers, not fans TV networks or anything like the circus like feeding cycle that surrounds MMA and boxing in the west. In a way that’s its saviour and its doom.

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Old 06-20-2012, 09:58 PM   #482
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

I have been trying to find some info on Sanklai Sitkru-ott who later became mentor of Yodsanklai. I know he was a former lumpinee champion. does anyone have info on him?

Heres two videos of Sanklai against Samson Isan and Anantasak Panyuthapoom each were named Thailand sports writers fighter of the year 91 and 97 respectively:
BORKED

BORKED


Sanklai looks damn good.

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Old 06-20-2012, 10:56 PM   #483
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Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post

Stormy, Iím sure you know that when I say Saenchai gets maybe 300,000 baht, 50% goes to the gym as standard in Thailand. Then a large % gets sent back home to the parents, figure whatís left! It's appalling. Imagine if you are a stadium undercard fighter fighting for 30,000 baht or a guy at Omnoi fighting for 10,000 baht or a guy fighting in the bars for 500 baht. It leaves you numb with rage, when you really see what goes on. I posted a rant by a so called progressive gym owner about his thoughts on changing the status quo; you should check it out to see what they are up against. (Itís in one of the Buakaw gets sued threads).

The majority of fighters are done by time theyíre 24 or 25. Youíre right most guys end up with nothing, maybe a little noodle stand on the street or a second rate karaoke bar on some back soi somewhere doubling up as a cheap brothel for local people, and theyíre the lucky ones. Most however, become taxi drivers, go home and become farmers or gunmen in illegal casinos where a lot can wind up dead. Options are limited for a normal Thais let alone a man thatís been bred only to kick ass since he was 8! One gym I trained at did try to help by taking a % of the fighters purse and putting it in a savings account for the fighter, but I dread to think how that turned out when the gym struck hard times.
Doesn't come as a great surprise. But it doesn't make it any less tragic.
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:20 AM   #484
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Originally Posted by yaca you View Post
I have been trying to find some info on Sanklai Sitkru-ott who later became mentor of Yodsanklai. I know he was a former lumpinee champion. does anyone have info on him?

Heres two videos of Sanklai against Samson Isan and Anantasak Panyuthapoom each were named Thailand sports writers fighter of the year 91 and 97 respectively:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Sanklai looks damn good.
Hey Yaca, great clips, particularly the fight against Samson Issan. I’ve got it on a VCD in BKK and never get tired of watching it a total ATG fight with everything you want form a stylistically perfect match up. Sanklai the intelligent technical fighter and counter striker vs. Samson the stereotypical Thai stalker walking through barrage after barrage to knee, clinch, punch, whatever he can to destroy. This again was a rubber match with both of them having 5 wins each, this their 11th encounter.

Samson in round 4, Ooooheeeiiiiiiii! And Sanklai in round 5 Oooooooooohhhheeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiii!!!! Everything thrown with vicious intent, I love it.

That fight also features a contender for ATG clinch in an ATG round 4, one of the most epic examples of a perfect Thai clinch, the kind of thing foreign fighters have nightmares about and pray will never happen to them. Worth checking it out again: Samson rallies in the 4th, pressures Sanklai and engages in the clinch at 7.45 and in a masterful show of technique and strength Samson clamps hard, spinning and repeatedly throwing knees until Sanklai spits out his gumshield at about 8.50 cos he can’t breathe and then the ref splits them at about 8.53, tying things up for the final 5th round, ****in epic! You don’t see them like that anymore.

You can really see similarities to Yod in the second fight against Anantasak especially the way he mixes the kicks and punches. Funny since last weekend I’ve been rewatching the contender Asia on DVD and the way Sanklai was kicking kinda reminded of Yod’s fight against “the Preacher”.

This is probably going to be an anti-climax but I can’t give you much more than you know already, I don’t really have any behind the scenes info on him. You’re right Sanklai always comes up in ATG lists and conversations. He was a double Lumpini champ at both 115 and 118 (I think at the same time) which shows you his calibre. Safe to say Sanklai (from Korat in Issan) was one badass, but typical of the top fighters in the era of which there are so many as you know. The trouble with the 90s is that technologically it was behind the west and Thailand never really caught up until about 2004-5 so little internet pre 2001 and not many MT DVDS. What you have on You tube now is largely an incomplete picture of the golden age of MT in Thailand in the 90s and before form old videotape and some later VCDs. Contrary to popular belief MT videos and VCDs and now DVDs are not the easiest things to find and buy in Thailand as most Thais unless they are in the fight game or the nuttiest of fight fans are unlikely to rewatch fights from the past as they get such a constant diet of the fresh stuff and most watch in a gambling capacity anyway.

It’s unfortunate because guys that have tuned into MT post the explosion of MMA in the early 2000s are only seeing half of what went on, an incomplete picture. As I mentioned before Sor Thanikul is a classic example, a top gym with an huge promoter Mr. Klao who had a dominate effect on the sport for two decades barely exists on the internet. You have a few *Boonlai, Boonleng and Sombat clips, but these were later champs for the gym. Guys like Kitti Sor Thanikul a true legend seem to only have one clip, a crap example of him fighting kickboxing rules in the States. Guys like Phyap Noi, Komkiet (the elder), and Khunsuk Sorthanikul have nothing to name only a few. Films of these guys do exist, some of the older gyms have great video libraries of fights with fighters form their gyms. (The Sor Thaikul trophy room is ****ing amazing, full of belts trophies and photos just sitting in it makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up). Obviously TV stations still have their libraries but how do you access them? and it’s possible many of those stations haven’t updated their libraries to digital and probably won’t due to costs.It’s a shame but who knows one day people may realise the worth of documenting the era and remaster what must be an era packed with some of the greatest standup fights the world has ever seen.

For more info on Sanklai try to post on a site Rob’s on or PM him, he may be able to help or dig up info quicker than me. Talking of Rob he just posted this on his site Muay Thai Focus. A recent match up between The Lek Wor Sangprapai (Red) V Design Rachanon (Blue), an elbow fest with buckets of heart, Rob reckons a possible contender for fight of the year and who would disagree! Enjoy:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpU9BnfFHCo[/ame]
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:54 AM   #485
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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Doesn't come as a great surprise. But it doesn't make it any less tragic.
Absotlutley Spider, it's ****in heartbreakin!
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:03 PM   #486
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Have guys like Naruenat and Thongchai, who have competed for so very long, actually achieved wealth as a result?

Even if they have, I wonder what state their brains and bodies will be by the time they hit 50 or 60?
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Old 06-23-2012, 03:15 PM   #487
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Have guys like Naruenat and Thongchai, who have competed for so very long, actually achieved wealth as a result?

Even if they have, I wonder what state their brains and bodies will be by the time they hit 50 or 60?
The fact Naruenat and Thongchai are still fighting says it all really. If you asked 99% of Thai fighters in Thailand if they could earn the same money not fighting would they fight?, the unanimous answer would be no way! In Thailand they are forever perplexed as to why westerners who seem to have it all want to come to Thailand and fight MT, they don’t get it, the average Thai thinks we’re all nuts. For them it’s the necessity of earning a living the only way they know how. Anyway, Thongchai got busted a few years ago and did time for selling “Ya Ma”, amphetamine pills popular in Thailand due to their low price and long high. I think that tells you all you need to know about Thongchai’s financial situation.

You’ll be surprised how humbly Khaosai Galaxy now lives. He’d be considered middle class by Thai standards. Middle class is a very small class in Thailand with about 90%of the country considered working class/poor. Remember this is a top international boxing champion who gets regular mainstream TV and movie work. He lives in modest town house with a regular pick up and no real extra spills, he proabaly does have another house up in Issan but he's not living it up a la Pacman that's for sure. The trouble is as we’ve spoken about a lot recently so I won’t go into it all again but the people that handle these guys are way too greedy and powerful. Sure, boxers are boxers and most are bad at handling money, especially when confronted by needed family members trapped by poverty. At the end of the day these guys have been bred to kick ass from day dot and have little experience of normal life outside the camp until their career is done or they get into their middle twenties, so hence know little of the world and how to manipulate it and the greedy powerful people that surround them. When they leave the gyms they are often ill equipped for anything else and hence struggle and become easy targets for manipulative gangsters and authorities (the real mob in Thailand) that can always use more muscle.

In terms of injuries late in life, MT has multiple target areas with the head not being the main one, so you tend not to see so much of the pugilistic dementia you get in western boxing. I must stress that in my experience, myself included most guys come out of MT relatively OK in terms of long term head damage. Of course lots of facial damage but nothing other than cuts and the obvious breaks. When the Thai guys do have long term have problems they tend to be with joints, previous bad breaks, dislocations and internal injuries especially around the kidney and rib areas. The thing with most of these long term injuries are that they could have been prevented just after the fight if sufficient medical care was provided, but much of the medical care they received was cheap and second rate so hence problems not getting nipped in the bud and developing, again greedy handlers!!!

One really good example of this was a friend of mine named Lert Sor Thanikul (P’Lert to me). When I knew him he was a part time trainer in the gym whenever he needed some extra dough and was a really good padman for me. In his time the late 80s,90s, he had been a good regular Stadium fighter (Lumpini) but not a champion. Until his career had been cut short by an unusual injury. I’ll try and describe his injury but bear with me. If you imagine your neck without any muscles it’ll go limp, your head will be unsupported and loll around form side to side without any control. This was his injury. He could only control how his head lolled around by jerking it with his shoulders or holding it up with his shoulders. (I’ll never forget the 1st time I sat on the back of his motorcycle with him driving and his head lolling around………****in shitting myself!!!! ) Anyway, when I asked him how it happened he basically said to me “you lucky, farang doctor good, Thai doctor very bad!!!”.He explained how he was taken to a very inexpensive low level doctor who made the wrong decision and hence left him with this terrible lifelong injury that affected every part of his life, but he never let it get in the way of anything, even with his injury a great padman!!!!

I’ve attached a picture of him with me in about 2001. It doesn’t look that bad in the photo, but you can kind of get what I’m saying, notice his head permanently leaning to the side and how he’s having to prop his head up with his neck. The photo makes it look static, but in real life his head was moving most of the time unless it was propped.


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Old 06-23-2012, 06:42 PM   #488
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The fact Naruenat and Thongchai are still fighting says it all really. If you asked 99% of Thai fighters in Thailand if they could earn the same money not fighting would they fight?, the unanimous answer would be no way!
Kind of anticipated the fact they were still fighting already answered the question. But I guess I quietly hoped they were actually getting wealthy in the process, not just putting themselves half a step above the others and worse off health-wise.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:49 PM   #489
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The trouble is as weíve spoken about a lot recently so I wonít go into it all again but the people that handle these guys are way too greedy and powerful.
There are bloodsucking parasites feeding off fighters in all fight sports from what I've seen. Fighters' business savy, though probably on the improve, has always been 3rd rate and they are very vulnerable as a result.
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Old 06-23-2012, 06:57 PM   #490
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In terms of injuries late in life, MT has multiple target areas with the head not being the main one, so you tend not to see so much of the pugilistic dementia you get in western boxing. I must stress that in my experience, myself included most guys come out of MT relatively OK in terms of long term head damage. Of course lots of facial damage but nothing other than cuts and the obvious breaks. When the Thai guys do have long term have problems they tend to be with joints, previous bad breaks, dislocations and internal injuries especially around the kidney and rib areas.
Still not things that enhance quality of life after fighting. I can see why most come out of it as broken down fighting machines and little else and aren't really suited to anything other than providing muscle to the mob.

I like your story about the pad-holder / dangerous driver with the wonkey neck. Would be funny if it wasn't sad.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:56 PM   #491
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

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There are bloodsucking parasites feeding off fighters in all fight sports from what I've seen. Fighters' business savy, though probably on the improve, has always been 3rd rate and they are very vulnerable as a result.
I agree, but there is something about the way the system works in Thailand that just is so hard to take. I think it's how wide spread and institutionalised in the sport it is and how accepting the guys are of their lot in life. The way it just feels like a ginat cattlemarket churing out fresh meat all the time to be chewed up and spat out and some spat out even after attaining the absolute pinnacle and becoming the most celebrated of warriors turns your stomach. Even though it's the national sport and seen as a cultural jewel, society still never regards it as a respectful or useful job.

I know it's a cliche, but it's so true for many Thai fighters, they really are some of the nicest most humble, loyal guys you'll ever meet (almost childlike in some ways) regardless of the awsome physical power they wield.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:58 PM   #492
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Still not things that enhance quality of life after fighting. I can see why most come out of it as broken down fighting machines and little else and aren't really suited to anything other than providing muscle to the mob..
Needless to say, but the whole sport is surrounded and controlled by exactly the same sorts that would look to exploit them once they are finished in the ring. Lumpini stadium is on Army land........
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:46 PM   #493
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Needless to say, but the whole sport is surrounded and controlled by exactly the same sorts that would look to exploit them once they are finished in the ring. Lumpini stadium is on Army land........
Tragic, and probably hard to see it ever changing?
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Old 06-23-2012, 09:11 PM   #494
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Tragic, and probably hard to see it ever changing?
Doubt it.
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Old 06-24-2012, 06:53 AM   #495
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Hey Yaca, great clips, particularly the fight against Samson Issan. Iíve got it on a VCD in BKK and never get tired of watching it a total ATG fight with everything you want form a stylistically perfect match up. Sanklai the intelligent technical fighter and counter striker vs. Samson the stereotypical Thai stalker walking through barrage after barrage to knee, clinch, punch, whatever he can to destroy. This again was a rubber match with both of them having 5 wins each, this their 11th encounter.

Samson in round 4, Ooooheeeiiiiiiii! And Sanklai in round 5 Oooooooooohhhheeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiii!!!! Everything thrown with vicious intent, I love it.

That fight also features a contender for ATG clinch in an ATG round 4, one of the most epic examples of a perfect Thai clinch, the kind of thing foreign fighters have nightmares about and pray will never happen to them. Worth checking it out again: Samson rallies in the 4th, pressures Sanklai and engages in the clinch at 7.45 and in a masterful show of technique and strength Samson clamps hard, spinning and repeatedly throwing knees until Sanklai spits out his gumshield at about 8.50 cos he canít breathe and then the ref splits them at about 8.53, tying things up for the final 5th round, ****in epic! You donít see them like that anymore.

You can really see similarities to Yod in the second fight against Anantasak especially the way he mixes the kicks and punches. Funny since last weekend Iíve been rewatching the contender Asia on DVD and the way Sanklai was kicking kinda reminded of Yodís fight against ďthe PreacherĒ.

This is probably going to be an anti-climax but I canít give you much more than you know already, I donít really have any behind the scenes info on him. Youíre right Sanklai always comes up in ATG lists and conversations. He was a double Lumpini champ at both 115 and 118 (I think at the same time) which shows you his calibre. Safe to say Sanklai (from Korat in Issan) was one badass, but typical of the top fighters in the era of which there are so many as you know. The trouble with the 90s is that technologically it was behind the west and Thailand never really caught up until about 2004-5 so little internet pre 2001 and not many MT DVDS. What you have on You tube now is largely an incomplete picture of the golden age of MT in Thailand in the 90s and before form old videotape and some later VCDs. Contrary to popular belief MT videos and VCDs and now DVDs are not the easiest things to find and buy in Thailand as most Thais unless they are in the fight game or the nuttiest of fight fans are unlikely to rewatch fights from the past as they get such a constant diet of the fresh stuff and most watch in a gambling capacity anyway.

Itís unfortunate because guys that have tuned into MT post the explosion of MMA in the early 2000s are only seeing half of what went on, an incomplete picture. As I mentioned before Sor Thanikul is a classic example, a top gym with an huge promoter Mr. Klao who had a dominate effect on the sport for two decades barely exists on the internet. You have a few *Boonlai, Boonleng and Sombat clips, but these were later champs for the gym. Guys like Kitti Sor Thanikul a true legend seem to only have one clip, a crap example of him fighting kickboxing rules in the States. Guys like Phyap Noi, Komkiet (the elder), and Khunsuk Sorthanikul have nothing to name only a few. Films of these guys do exist, some of the older gyms have great video libraries of fights with fighters form their gyms. (The Sor Thaikul trophy room is ****ing amazing, full of belts trophies and photos just sitting in it makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up). Obviously TV stations still have their libraries but how do you access them? and itís possible many of those stations havenít updated their libraries to digital and probably wonít due to costs.Itís a shame but who knows one day people may realise the worth of documenting the era and remaster what must be an era packed with some of the greatest standup fights the world has ever seen.

For more info on Sanklai try to post on a site Robís on or PM him, he may be able to help or dig up info quicker than me. Talking of Rob he just posted this on his site Muay Thai Focus. A recent match up between The Lek Wor Sangprapai (Red) V Design Rachanon (Blue), an elbow fest with buckets of heart, Rob reckons a possible contender for fight of the year and who would disagree! Enjoy:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Thanks for another great post Boran.


You own a good sized collection of muaythai Boran? You ever think of uploading some fights on youtube?

So Sanklai was a Lumpinee champ at 115 and 118lbs.


Sanklai really looks like an ATG to me just for the skills he showed against top competition in these two fights I know their has got to be more footage of him and other top fighters of the previous decades. Youtube's library is always expanding. But at the same time uploads are being lost as accounts are closed.

The fight with the lek was a battle, he really is a vicious kid aint he with those elbows in close. When I saw that knee land and Design Rachanon go down I knew it was over. Hard to recover from that. Good fight.
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