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Old 12-19-2012, 11:48 AM   #751
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

I will say that Orono isn't Khaosai's best win; Contreras is. Pical was decent but not great and the Korean fella that was robbed against Chitalada was good but lost his advantages up at super fly.

Moon was better. Ergo, Khaokor was better than Khaosai. So much more skilled even if he lacked the longevity and massive dig at 118.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:09 PM   #752
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Some strong words. Excellent posts. Appreciated!
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:26 PM   #753
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Did you see my post page before?

Honestly mate, anything you wanna' know about Thai's that have boxed, just ask. If I know, more than happy to share

Likewise, anything interesting you find PLEASE pass it on
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:40 PM   #754
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Thank you very much for the hospitality, good sir. I do actually have a few questions. And if I ever come across anything interesting I'll be more than happy to share!

And I apologize for my ignorance but what do you mean by "post page"?

BTW, I'm currently on page 30 of this thread -- I'm tearing through it, trying to catch up.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:33 PM   #755
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Sorry, my typing in my accent has caught up to me

My post the page before. As usually happens, I had a brainwave after originally replying to your post and posted again rather than edit the first one; which made us spill onto a new page (this one )

And I'm hospitable to anyone who's into these guys...don't believe the hype I'm not that harsh

EDIT: as for your questions, go right ahead. All of 'em if you want, let's not **** around
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:06 PM   #756
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Oh! Yes I read it so no worries. All excellent stuff and as always, unbelievably appreciated.

Some questions:
Thai fighters and nicknames (also Muay Thai fighters in Thailand itself). Can you catch me up on the culture and tradition behind this?

I watched the video of the oldest Muay Thai fight posted earlier in this thread -- has the style dramatically changed from then to now? Like the huge transition (IMO) we've had the last 100 plus years in boxing.


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Old 12-19-2012, 02:18 PM   #757
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Yeah, that seems very embryonic, but it may well have been a bit of a show for what were probably archaic machines doing the filming (all speculation, only skimmed over the vid' as it seemed an odd piece and little more than a curio, Boran will know more)

We've touched on nicknames on here and there are all sorts of variations, but the easiest example is of surnames; the fighter usually has their first name (or alias, this sometimes changes but less so really) and tales the name of their gym or sponsor (sometimes both!) as their surname.

So whilst the Western World has known Pongsaklek Wonjongkam as that for most of his career, Thailand has seen him with a few different monikers even in the last few!

Samart (and his brother Kongtoranee pretty sure I've made a few posts on him in this thread and Boran has discussed him, comes highly recommended for both boxing and MT) are good examples; Payakaroon was the name of their gym. Pretty sure it's in Pattaya.

BORAN How come those two never went under Sidyodtong?
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:40 PM   #758
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Alright I understand. Awesome work Flea!

I came across this a while ago. Dug it up for y'all, you've probably seen it.

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Let me know if you agree with the names.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:24 PM   #759
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Weird that Samart gets such little air time

Enjoyed the front page though.

Dieselnoi for me. His reputation says it all. I would say everyone here would be most frightened of Dieselnoi's knees. That says it all really.

I'd rather get punched by Saensak than kneed by Dieselnoi.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:32 PM   #760
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The last time it was revised was in '04, I believe. But still that wouldn't make a difference.

What's the name of a certain Muay Thai fighter -- he has one of the most epic nicknames I have ever ****ing heard. "Knees that slice/pierce the sky" or something...
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:03 PM   #761
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

The fighter your thinking of is the ATG knee specialist Dieselnoi, who Fleaman was talking about and the nickname was “The Sky Piercing Knee Kicker”, Dieselnoi is also a nickname of his meaning “Little Diesel”. A guy so dominant he was stripped of his stadium belts and retired from the sport!

That list of ATGs link you posted is pretty good and the names are all fine, but what you have to remember is these guys very often had many more than one nickname some varying from region to region and the English spelling of these names can vary dramatically depending on how they’ve been romanaised.ie Somluck, Somrak, Somluk & Buakaw, Buakao, Buakhao etc etc.

Flea is basically spot on with the interchangeable name thing. It’s the same for both Boxing and Muay Thai fighters as they were all Muay Thai fighters before they were boxers. On the whole when the fighter starts fighting he’s given a first name or keeps his own, then most commonly he takes the gym name to be his surname and as Flea noted this can also interchange with a sponser, so Pongsaklek Kratingdaenggym (Red Bull Gym) or Pongsaklek Gaiyanghadow (5 Star Roast Chicken). 99% of fighters take the gym name including forigners, I became +++++ Sor. Thanikul. It’s only really the big time guys that take on a sponsor’s name.

Inspiration for names can come from anywhere, some are boxing related, some are movie or cartoon character names, some are products and some are just downright bizarre. ATG Yodsanklai Fairtex’s 1st name is just a tribute to his trainer Sanklai a 2 time Lumpinee belt holder, Yod meaning the best added to Sanklai. You get Yod as a prefix a lot as you do Pet (Diamond), Lek (Small) Noi (Small) Singha (Lion) etc etc. Buakaw for example is not his real name, his real name is Sombat (a common MT name meaning “treasure”) Banchamek. He took the name Buakaw which means “White Lotus”, as he was “owned” and fought out of Por. Pramuk he became Buakaw Por. Pramuk. However, since his split form Por Pramuk has to fight under the Por. Pramuk name only when he fights under the Thai Fight banner, but elsewhere I believe he can fight under his own banner of Buakaw Banchamek as he now fights out of his own Banchamek gym. Just to show you how complex it can be look at the name record of current P4P No.1 and possible GOAT Saenchai PKSaenchaimuaythaigym.

Born:
Suphachai Saenpong

Fight Names:

Suphachai Jocky Gym
Sanchai Sor. Khamsing
Saenchai Sor. Kingstar
Saenchai Sinbimuaythai
Saenchai PKSaenchaimuaythaigym

Western Boxing Name
:
Sangpetch Patanakan Gym

Just to show you the bizzaro check this name from a young fighter on a BKK card a few weeks ago Santaclaus Rongreanladplakaovitia”:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11HPsKXnWoQ[/ame]


To be honest this name thing comes out of a wider interchangeable use for names in wider Thai society. It’s not uncommon for a Thai to have a Western sounding 1st name for his foreign friends, a traditional 1st name for use with his family, a Bangkok name and an name he’s known as in his home province and these aren’t just nicknames they’ll carry these for life. My wife has a southern Thai name, a Bangkok name, her born name and a name she uses in the west.

Flea in answer to your Sidyodtong question, well in many instances it is referred to as the Sidyodtong Payakaroon Camp. The brothers got the name Payakaroon from a gym they briefly trained at in Chonburi province before they got whisked away to Sidyodtong in nearby Pattaya. I’m not sure of the details but it was Samart & Kong that really put Sidyodtong on the map and hence the allowed shared name. I’m not sure why they were allowed or choose or keep the name at such a young age in the Sidyodtong camp, but it can sometimes be to do with a respected owner who died and hence out of loyalty and superstition the name gets kept, there can be many reasons. It’s also possible that in their earlier fights out of Sidyodtong they did take the Sidyodtong name but reverted back once success happened for whatever reason, I’d have to go back and listen to the commentary on some of their earlier fights to check how they are introduced.

Flea’s right with that “Oldest Muay Thai Clip” it’s nothing but a western curio, that’s not the real McCoy at all. There are loads of set up little clips like that from all over the near and far east from that period of all sorts of odd exotic little scenarios sent back to the cinemas of Europe and America, interesting but bogus.

Muay Thai has definitely developed, but not as much as many would have you believe. The main developments have come through scoring system changes. At around the time of that clip the 20s MT was put into a square ring and gloved as it had previously been in a very very very large round “ring” basically a rope spread out in a circle over maybe 30 meters with the fighter using traditional string handwarps. Sure it must have gone through some changes in the next couple of decades, but I imagine this was stripping the sport down to the most effective essential weapons that all the previous regional styles had in common to get a scorable ring sport, so trashing the more eclectic and unpractical regional moves in favour of a simple but effective style of fighting which would be easy to score as well as gel well in the ring. It is highly unlikely the technique of each weapon has changed over time just the emphasis or fashion of what scores the most at each given era. For example through the 70s 80s and into the 90s the power with which a blow was stuck was taken into account, so the more powerful strikes obviously scoring more. This lead to guys focusing on their best techniques and repeatedly using them to breakdown their opponent, that’s why so many of the fights pre the 2000 were such wars cos the guys would just stand their full of bravado slugging it out with their best techniques. The power rule changed in the late 90s and early 2000s so the damage done wasn’t taken into account so much, it was the fact the strike landed that became more important hence guys like Saenchai and Sam A come to the for and clinching has become such a factor in modern MT with the knee scoring so highly. You often hear people saying “the fighters were better in the Golden Age”, rubbish!!! The fighters now are more technical than they’ve ever been and are more rounded interms of all their weapons. However, I do believe the fights were better back then cos you had specialist fighting specialist and remember in the 90s these guys really were house hold named super stars with big egos earning big big money, so the macho competition and bravado on show was huge and egged on and lapped up by the huge crowds they used to get. These days with the rise of European football, etc etc the guys aren’t as well known and get paid less, so maybe it doesn’t seem as much is on the line for them when they fight, maybe it’s just a payday rather than a legacy on the line now?

By the way Bigunit, if you wanna see some of those oldskool fighters on that list you posted fighting check my youtube channel. I have about 30 fights from the 60s and 70s on there and am due to add a load more over the next couple of weeks.

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Old 12-20-2012, 02:14 AM   #762
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Boranbkk,

What an epic post. You're like a walking encyclopedia!
And consider me subscribed!

Keep up the great work.

And got any opinions on best MuayThai nicknames?
Can anything really top SKY PIERCING KNEE KICKER?!
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:34 AM   #763
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

I have to say Boran that's one of the best posts of the thread. Class.
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Old 12-21-2012, 03:37 PM   #764
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post
Back to official ATG business.

I mentioned I’d post something on Sombat Sor Thanikul so here it is.


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Sombat was one of Sor Thanikul’s last real top of the line star champions of the 90s along with Boonlai. Sombat was a top stadium name and World/Lumpini/Raja champ in his era with fights against all the big Thai and foreign names including a fight against Dekkers. Famed for his powerful right kicks, he was also known as a clever relentless fighter who’d never stop coming due to being a little off key. His left kick was the stereotypical Thai baseball bat that caused a lot of fear and awe in the early days of MT in the west.

As a top 10 fighter of his era of the 90s, the golden era he has to be considered an ATG.

I met Sombat (which means treasure), after he’d had finished fighting. He’d opened a karaoke bar not too far from the gym where he kept himself busy being Sombat (post fighting he’s picked up a massive scar down the side of his face and neck form a meat cleaver in some mob related business). He was very very friendly, generous and welcoming; I remember being treated like a VIP on a few occasions in his karaoke bar. One thing about Sombat I remember that was different to all the other guys I hung out with over that period was he felt very unpredictable, like anything could happen at anytime with him. I always felt comfortable, but a little nervous. He was switched on but not quite there, as they say in Thai “Mai dem baht”, which means not the full penny. I think you can see that in his fight style, you get the felling he’ll just kick through anything to get you, relentless, wild but brutally controlled with his violence.

Unfortunately, there’s not much out there on the web about him considering his dominance, but a lot of that era is lost on tape. This is all I could find and they aren’t the best examples of this ATG in action.

Here’s a clip of him fighting fellow ATG Sangtiennoi Sor Rungrot “the deadly kisser” in Raja. Sombat losses this fight but you have to remember Sangtiennoi was a 140lbs fighter and Sombat a 128lbs fighter. Sangtiennoi had to come down to 128 for this fight but the strength and size of Sangtiennoi was too much even though Sombat more than holds his own. (Shades of Saenchai & Sagetdao V Penek recently).


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Here’s another clip of him fighting UK and international ATG (and personal teenage idol) Ronnie Green. Ronnie was Mater Toddy’s first real success story and is one of those quality MT pioneers in the west that very often gets left of farang ATG lists. He was the first Brit and one of that first group of early foreigners going to Thailand and taking on the Thais in their own back yard, he was also a 5 time world champ; I’ll do a post on Ronnie another time.

In the clip below fought in the UK but shown on Thai TV, ignore the commentators. They judge the match through kickboxing eyes not MT eyes. For me Sombat has too much skill, power and experience, but if you consider how advanced Ronnie’s MT was for his era in the UK, Ronnie did very very well and made a close fight of it. (Notice how westerners just didn’t really get how to clinch back then!).


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Shocking commentary aside I felt Green did the flashier work. Of course, I'm coming from a boxing base so I'm inclined to say that. When Sombat kicked back in the later rounds and made Green come to him he landed the better kicks and smacked some hurtful looking knees into him as well.

Close fight, I'm happy with a draw.

Sombat seems my kinda' character to be honest Shame there appears to be little footage of him.
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Old 12-21-2012, 05:17 PM   #765
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Default Re: ESB ATGs Muay Thai / KickBoxing fighters Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by boranbkk View Post

Muay Thai has definitely developed, but not as much as many would have you believe. The main developments have come through scoring system changes. At around the time of that clip the 20s MT was put into a square ring and gloved as it had previously been in a very very very large round “ring” basically a rope spread out in a circle over maybe 30 meters with the fighter using traditional string handwarps. Sure it must have gone through some changes in the next couple of decades, but I imagine this was stripping the sport down to the most effective essential weapons that all the previous regional styles had in common to get a scorable ring sport, so trashing the more eclectic and unpractical regional moves in favour of a simple but effective style of fighting which would be easy to score as well as gel well in the ring. It is highly unlikely the technique of each weapon has changed over time just the emphasis or fashion of what scores the most at each given era. For example through the 70s 80s and into the 90s the power with which a blow was stuck was taken into account, so the more powerful strikes obviously scoring more. This lead to guys focusing on their best techniques and repeatedly using them to breakdown their opponent, that’s why so many of the fights pre the 2000 were such wars cos the guys would just stand their full of bravado slugging it out with their best techniques. The power rule changed in the late 90s and early 2000s so the damage done wasn’t taken into account so much, it was the fact the strike landed that became more important hence guys like Saenchai and Sam A come to the for and clinching has become such a factor in modern MT with the knee scoring so highly. You often hear people saying “the fighters were better in the Golden Age”, rubbish!!! The fighters now are more technical than they’ve ever been and are more rounded interms of all their weapons. However, I do believe the fights were better back then cos you had specialist fighting specialist and remember in the 90s these guys really were house hold named super stars with big egos earning big big money, so the macho competition and bravado on show was huge and egged on and lapped up by the huge crowds they used to get. These days with the rise of European football, etc etc the guys aren’t as well known and get paid less, so maybe it doesn’t seem as much is on the line for them when they fight, maybe it’s just a payday rather than a legacy on the line now?
Boran,

What are you thoughts than on stylists such as Put Lorlek, Samart, Chartchai, Namkabuan, Boonlai, just to name a few, who were from the golden era, or even before, such as Put Lorlek, who seemed to be very well rounded technical fighters; fimeu I think is the term.

Are they anomalies? I agree completely that today's fighters on the whole are much more technical/well rounded, and that the skill set across all of the Thailand gyms seem to be more homogenous in nature, with fighters tailoring their particular style to their frame/innate abilities.

However I do think those fighters mentioned above, plus a slew of others from the golden era could hang with the current generation of top fighters.

Also, thanks for putting up the Rambo vs Pirotnoi fight! Hell of a battle!

stormy
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