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View Poll Results: What would be the outcome ?
Louis wins, by KO 40 76.92%
Louis wins, by decision 2 3.85%
Chagaev wins, by KO 7 13.46%
Chagaev wins, by decision 3 5.77%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-04-2012, 11:07 AM   #46
Seamus
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conn View Post
Firstly, what does "amateur star" have to do with it ?
(..... and should amateur boxers even aspire to 'stardom' ?)
It has to do with being trained in a rigorous system the basics of the sport rather than being dragged off the docks or dole lines. There's a bit of difference, say like fighting tough man competitions (which I have done to great glee) and fighting other trained, groomed pugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conn View Post
Is it merely the fact that Chagaev fought in the 21st century that makes you feel he was "more sound" and "superior" etc. ?
You rarely back up your statements, or try to enlighten others with what it is that makes him "better", "sound" etc.

You seem to display an extreme form of the same "era bias" you attack in others, for fighters of the last 30 years (since the 1980s) against fighters previous.
By back up my statements, do you mean rehashing an old drunken, fedora-wearing scribes' hyperbole regarding some ham and egger who wouldn't beat Eddie Chambers? I will be sure to include my citations in future posts.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:17 PM   #47
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Baer was a shadow of himself when Louis destroyed him.
This is an over statment.

Baer was prety much at his peak physicaly. His confidence had taken a knock and he might have had hand problems, but he was still a major force.

Hell, look at what he managed to do in the division when he realy was shot!

Quote:
I have absolutely no doubt that Chagaev's mobile two-fisted style and technical guard would cause Carnera absolute fits.
I am not saying that it wouldn't, but can we regard him as being more acomplished than Carnera, or even somebody like Lou Nova?
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:20 PM   #48
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Chagaev stands in the pocket to counter with left hands.

He was very good at it.

You dont try to pull and pocket counter Joe Louis.

Louis KO 1. KO 2, maybe, cause Ruslan is tough as hell. KO 3 if he lands a great counter left early.
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Old 02-04-2012, 05:25 PM   #49
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Baer was a shadow of himself when Louis destroyed him.

I have absolutely no doubt that Chagaev's mobile two-fisted style and technical guard would cause Carnera absolute fits.
Baer wasn't a shadow of himself...he was just scared shitless and demoralized when he fought Louis. It didn't help either that Louis more than exceeded his reputation in this fight.
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Old 02-04-2012, 05:32 PM   #50
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
It has to do with being trained in a rigorous system the basics of the sport rather than being dragged off the docks or dole lines. There's a bit of difference, say like fighting tough man competitions (which I have done to great glee) and fighting other trained, groomed pugs.
But this view of 1930s boxing is a complete figment of your imagination.
Those guys were professionals who had dedicated years of their lives to perfecting their craft, and had boxed hundreds of bouts, most of them starting when boys. All through the amateur ranks, and bootleg and smoker circuits, and up the pro fight club circuit.
The trainers then were good experienced veterans too.
You're simply dealing in untruths.
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Old 02-04-2012, 07:31 PM   #51
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Louis would have won, quickly, and there would have been blood, lots of blood. Of that, I have no doubt.
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Old 02-04-2012, 08:41 PM   #52
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
You're underating Chagaev's mobility there Bummy. He's not lightning, but he's plenty organised enough to stay away from Louis for more than three rounds. His game will be moving and throwing the straight-left hand without a sell, I don't see him being tricked early doors. Louis will have to walk him down, like every other mover he ever faced.

You're also underating Chagaev's durabilty, possibly. He took a huge beating from Wlad.

I'll pick Louis to win in similar circumstances, Chagaev pulled by the corner between the 9th and 12th.


I watched Chagaev from the amateurs and the beginning of his career and do not think he would stand a chance with the likes of Joe Louis...Chagaev is slow and ponderous and never really seemed in the best condition and the fights against Valuev,Ruiz,Povetkin and they all looked like they could easily drop 20 lbs, nothing cut on any of them...I think he can compete today but I don't think he would get past Schmeling,Walcott, The Baers, and a few others...for Louis he would be cannon fodder...as an underachiever I wont put him in the class of a Witherspoon,Tubbs or Page but Ruslin was not over dedicated or ever in tip top shape IMO....I see him and Jack Sharkey in a close decision that Sharkey wins
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:02 AM   #53
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

The idea of Chagaev even having chance agianst Louis is stupid. 11 years as champ, might be l greatest of all time, and people put him up in dream match with an average contender?
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:29 AM   #54
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conn View Post
Chagaev might be about as good as Godoy or Farr.

Godoy and Farr both gave Louis hard fights.
Godoy was far more difficult stylistically than Chagaev would be. Essentially, he's a much more active, better swarmer (I know Chagaev isn't a swarmer. That's my point). I think Louis would take him out. If you're not quick, cute, or mobile than you better be a tough, aggressive fighter. Chagaev is somewhat stuck in the middle... and not impressive enough in his natural inclination of counter-punching.
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Old 02-05-2012, 01:35 AM   #55
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Chagaev stands in the pocket to counter with left hands.

He was very good at it.

You dont try to pull and pocket counter Joe Louis.

Louis KO 1. KO 2, maybe, cause Ruslan is tough as hell. KO 3 if he lands a great counter left early.
You hit the nail on the head with style breakdown. Your experience and knowledge is a unique and refreshing insight Magna.

For me, Chagaev is just too uninspiring, too uncreative. I don't like him. He's too rudimentary. Boxing is more of an art form than a science (Despite being the sweet science). Chagaev is like the anti-Burley.

Chagaev-Carnera would be far more interesting than Chageav-Valuev. Well not interesting, but I think Carnera was better and Chagaev's chances would be reduced.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:08 AM   #56
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Baer was prety much at his peak physicaly. His confidence had taken a knock and he might have had hand problems, but he was still a major force.
He wasn't nearly as good as he used to be. He was scared and dis-interested. He was a excellent fighter at his peak. He was not an excellent fighter here.

Quote:
I am not saying that it wouldn't, but can we regard him as being more acomplished than Carnera, or even somebody like Lou Nova?
No, but I don't care about that in a discussion about who would win a fight. I care about styles and abilities. Both favour Chagaev.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
Chagaev stands in the pocket to counter with left hands.
This is how he fought Wlad. It is not how he fought Valuev, or Ruiz, really. I would be astonished if he fought Louis like this, and he would certainly be more likely to get knocked out early if he did.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:14 AM   #57
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

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Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
I watched Chagaev from the amateurs and the beginning of his career and do not think he would stand a chance with the likes of Joe Louis...
I agree.

Quote:
Chagaev is slow and ponderous and never really seemed in the best condition
This is not true. He was in condition enough to box 12 mobile rounds against top oppposition and keep these abilities into the later rounds. What is on film contradicts your observation.

When, previous to his achilles injury, did Chagaev ever look blown over the distance? He didn't have a very "buff body" but that's not the same thing. He did indeed carry perhaps an extra 20lbs, but he perhaps felt he needed that weight, his "natural" poundage seeming to be very close to 200.

Also, the beating he absorbed versus Wlad was pretty hellish. You need to be in shape to suck up those punches.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:20 AM   #58
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I agree.



This is not true. He was in condition enough to box 12 mobile rounds against top oppposition and keep these abilities into the later rounds. What is on film contradicts your observation.

When, previous to his achilles injury, did Chagaev ever look blown over the distance? He didn't have a very "buff body" but that's not the same thing. He did indeed carry perhaps an extra 20lbs, but he perhaps felt he needed that weight, his "natural" poundage seeming to be very close to 200.

Also, the beating he absorbed versus Wlad was pretty hellish. You need to be in shape to suck up those punches.

I agree with you.

Chagaev is out of his class with Louis, and I don't think he lasts long at all due to styles, but its sad to see him insulted and belittled. He was really very good, and never showed up undertrained.

And he actually DID fight Valuev that way, to great effect. He did he best worked when cornered, not just on the ropes, but cornered, and thrashing Valuev with left hands when he'd overcommit.

He wasn't immobile, but his offense was at his best when his opponent came to him and he planted his feet. Louis' balance was perfect and the quick, sharp stream of punishment could be overwhelming, hence my prediction.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:25 AM   #59
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

I thought Chagaev tried to fight Wlad aggressively, but it was obvious he was uncomfortable doing so.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:32 AM   #60
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Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
He was really very good, and never showed up undertrained.


Quote:
And he actually DID fight Valuev that way, to great effect. He did he best worked when cornered, not just on the ropes, but cornered, and thrashing Valuev with left hands when he'd overcommit.
The difference between Wlad and Valuev is that he brought Valuev onto his punches with movement. Valuev took an absolute age to get set and Louis didn't, but Louis's footwork, whilst it could be his strength in terms of economy and balance, was somethng of a weakness in terms of arriving in his opponents sphere. Billy Conn observed this perfectly. He fought one way within the Louis circle, and one way without to great effect.

I'm not saying Chagaev could reproduce this strategy exactly, because he couldn't, impossible - but he can take advantage of the same transitionary period by moving and throwing, moving and throwing. He shown me that he has the technical and capable ability to do execute this plan. I believe Louis would counter by trying to jab, jab him which, in tandem with the openings it would force (not his natural fight) he would probaly win most of the rounds.

Now, against Wlad, he fought as you describe in a literal sense, taking up a position just outside range and trying to break in with counters. It was an exciting plan and the right plan for Wlad. This strategy would get him killed against Joe Louis - he's basically baiting the Bomber's trap himself. Louis spent round after round trying to force guys to do exactly this with traps and feints. But it's not the fight Chagaev would fight, I hope.
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