Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: What would be the outcome ?
Louis wins, by KO 40 76.92%
Louis wins, by decision 2 3.85%
Chagaev wins, by KO 7 13.46%
Chagaev wins, by decision 3 5.77%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-05-2012, 02:38 AM   #61
MagnaNasakki
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post




The difference between Wlad and Valuev is that he brought Valuev onto his punches with movement. Valuev took an absolute age to get set and Louis didn't, but Louis's footwork, whilst it could be his strength in terms of economy and balance, was somethng of a weakness in terms of arriving in his opponents sphere. Billy Conn observed this perfectly. He fought one way within the Louis circle, and one way without to great effect.

I'm not saying Chagaev could reproduce this strategy exactly, because he couldn't, impossible - but he can take advantage of the same transitionary period by moving and throwing, moving and throwing. He shown me that he has the technical and capable ability to do execute this plan. I believe Louis would counter by trying to jab, jab him which, in tandem with the openings it would force (not his natural fight) he would probaly win most of the rounds.

Now, against Wlad, he fought as you describe in a literal sense, taking up a position just outside range and trying to break in with counters. It was an exciting plan and the right plan for Wlad. This strategy would get him killed against Joe Louis - he's basically baiting the Bomber's trap himself. Louis spent round after round trying to force guys to do exactly this with traps and feints. But it's not the fight Chagaev would fight, I hope.
Fair enough. We agree on that much, though: Without lateral movement, Louis thrashes him right quick.

I'm a Chag fan, and I just can't recall him on his toes, other than back up and letting foes walk into sharp shots. I'll watch a few again this week.
MagnaNasakki is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 02-05-2012, 02:40 AM   #62
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,037
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

I don't think you'll ever see him on his toes outside of the very very early stuff when he was trying to wedge his am style into what he saw as a pro slot which was kind of interesting.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 07:35 AM   #63
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,102
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I would actually agree with Seamus that Chagaev would be more sound generally than most Louis opponents. He was a consumate technician.

However, he was also, stance aside, pretty ordinary physically. I think Schmeling might have stopped him in a 15 round fight.
Ordinary compared to who? Cruisers and light heavies gave Louis trouble? Louis seems to get a pass on shaky performances. Chagaev's defense, durability, and smarts are being discounted here. He is a boxer type with some power.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 08:19 AM   #64
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,037
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Ordinary compared to who?
Anyone with great speed, power, strength or size.

Quote:
Cruisers and light heavies gave Louis trouble?
So? He fought almost every significant HW in his era, and he smashed them all up, whether they were 170 or 230. The fighter who could fight almost every significant figure from his own era without experiencing "trouble" is not yet born. I don't care about the size they are, I care about how good they are.

Quote:
Louis seems to get a pass on shaky performances.
Yes. THis is because he faced EVERY #1 contender during his reign, beat EVERY fighter he faced in his prime, and avenged any "shaky performances" with destructive KO victories. Only an obsessive detractor like yourself bleats on endlessly about these "shakey performances" which came during the longest and most dominat reign in the HISTORY of HW boxing.

Quote:
defense, durability, and smarts are being discounted here.
By who? Have you read this thread? I've done nothing but fight his corner. What YOU want is for people to pick Chagaev over Louis, most likely because he is a Klitschko opponent and Louis is a fighter you consistently try to undermine. Nobody sane will make that pick because it is a crap pick. Everyone who knows boxing knows Louis is to be favoured over Chagaev. Even those, like me, who would expect Ruslan to give the Bomber a headache.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 09:27 AM   #65
red cobra
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Sea of Tranquility
Posts: 13,108
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danmann View Post
The idea of Chagaev even having chance agianst Louis is stupid. 11 years as champ, might be l greatest of all time, and people put him up in dream match with an average contender?
This is the edgy, avant garde "cutting edge" of ESB.
red cobra is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 12:21 PM   #66
Bummy Davis
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 9,276
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I agree.



This is not true. He was in condition enough to box 12 mobile rounds against top oppposition and keep these abilities into the later rounds. What is on film contradicts your observation.

When, previous to his achilles injury, did Chagaev ever look blown over the distance? He didn't have a very "buff body" but that's not the same thing. He did indeed carry perhaps an extra 20lbs, but he perhaps felt he needed that weight, his "natural" poundage seeming to be very close to 200.

Also, the beating he absorbed versus Wlad was pretty hellish. You need to be in shape to suck up those punches.
The pace he likes to fight is not a hectic pace, Chagaev is not a slob but I don't feel he was ever at his best condition, the last fight with Povetkin they kept punching but were winded and from the looks of it I don't think either man could have fought 15 rds.....Also he only puts out so much, never puts the effort in for a KO attempt and is content with a decision even vs Mediocre opposition.

I feel Chagaev, Ibragimov,Valuev, were solid and difficult guys to fight but neither would survive against Louis and its no sure bet they were superior to any of Louis's opponents bar a few and were they better than Jack Sharkey,Primo Carnera,Jess Willard or Tommy Burns...were they better than Patterson or Johanasen
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 12:47 PM   #67
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,125
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
The pace he likes to fight is not a hectic pace, Chagaev is not a slob but I don't feel he was ever at his best condition, the last fight with Povetkin they kept punching but were winded and from the looks of it I don't think either man could have fought 15 rds.....Also he only puts out so much, never puts the effort in for a KO attempt and is content with a decision even vs Mediocre opposition.

I feel Chagaev, Ibragimov,Valuev, were solid and difficult guys to fight but neither would survive against Louis and its no sure bet they were superior to any of Louis's opponents bar a few and were they better than Jack Sharkey,Primo Carnera,Jess Willard or Tommy Burns...were they better than Patterson or Johanasen
I wouldn't use the Chavaev of the Poventkin fight as a benchmark. Hepatitis, a blown achilles and Klitschko had all done a number to diminish him. Nor would I lump in Chag with Valuev. Chag had a stellar amateur career, two-time World Champ, defeated Savon twice... etc. Valuev was a carefully managed circus freak.
Seamus is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 12:54 PM   #68
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,037
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis View Post
The pace he likes to fight is not a hectic pace Chagaev is not a slob but I don't feel he was ever at his best condition
I feel you may be confusing "best shape" with "buff body". Chagaev carried some extra weight and this was a calculated risk which worked well for him. Whatever your feelings, he was never exposed as under-conditioned in the ring prior to his illness and injury, so attackng his conditioning seems strange.

Quote:
the last fight with Povetkin they kept punching but were winded
And this is plain silly. Do you generally use the worst versions of fighters to determine their conditioning? Based on this type of evidence you could conclude that Duran was never in condition either.

Quote:
and from the looks of it I don't think either man could have fought 15 rds.....
Given that neither man has ever trained for 15, I'd say this is distinctly possible.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 01:13 PM   #69
Conn
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 802
vCash: 500
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
I wouldn't use the Chavaev of the Poventkin fight as a benchmark. Hepatitis, a blown achilles and Klitschko had all done a number to diminish him. Nor would I lump in Chag with Valuev. Chag had a stellar amateur career, two-time World Champ, defeated Savon twice... etc. Valuev was a carefully managed circus freak.
Again you're mentioning his amateur career, and that's probably because his record and performances as a professional are quite pedestrian, a very unremarkable title-holder.
Wins over the freak Valuev and a declining, twice-beaten-by-blown-up-middles John Ruiz are Chagaev's crowning glories - his claims to fame.

I think Klitschko and Povetkin are the two best he fought.
Conn is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 01:22 PM   #70
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,037
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Poor Valuev.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 01:30 PM   #71
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,125
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conn View Post
Again you're mentioning his amateur career, and that's probably because his record and performances as a professional are quite pedestrian, a very unremarkable title-holder.
Wins over the freak Valuev and a declining, twice-beaten-by-blown-up-middles John Ruiz are Chagaev's crowning glories - his claims to fame.

I think Klitschko and Povetkin are the two best he fought.
No, I'm not trying to make him into the second coming of Joe Louis. However, guys like Sprott, Ruiz, Skelton and Meehan would fit in nicely in Louis' era, even being considered giants of the division. If I recall Louis built a good part of his legacy as longest reigning champ on stiffs like Paychek, Burman, Roper, Galento, Mauriello and others whose names no one even remembers. Hell, 183 pound Pastor and 175 pound Conn were considered highlight defenses for the heavy crown.

Really, Klitschko and Povetkin are the two best he fought? Going out on a limb with that one, aren't you?
Seamus is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 02:00 PM   #72
Conn
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 802
vCash: 500
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
No, I'm not trying to make him into the second coming of Joe Louis. However, guys like Sprott, Ruiz, Skelton and Meehan would fit in nicely in Louis' era, even being considered giants of the division. If I recall Louis built a good part of his legacy as longest reigning champ on stiffs like Paychek, Burman, Roper, Galento, Mauriello and others whose names no one even remembers. Hell, 183 pound Pastor and 175 pound Conn were considered highlight defenses for the heavy crown.
Ok, Sprott, Meehan and Skelton would have been among the very worst of Louis's challengers. Yes, Louis might have fought a few such challengers and I wouldn't consider them legacy builders. He tended to knock them out fast too.
But Louis beat plenty of better fighters than the ones on that level.
(I'd put Galento and Mauriello as more credible than Skelton et al. at the time they fought Louis too, but you would definitely disagree there).

The thing is, and you seem to imply it yourself, we end up comparing some of Chagaev's best opponents with some of Louis's worst challengers ... and at the same time you carry on insinuating that Chagaev was elite in a better era than Louis and that doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote:
Really, Klitschko and Povetkin are the two best he fought? Going out on a limb with that one, aren't you?
Conn is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 02:38 PM   #73
MagnaNasakki
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

The argument that a fighter is out of shape if you dont think they could go 15 is tenuous at best. At worst, its stupid.

A lot goes into training for a boxing distance. Training for a 10 rounder is different than a 12, and I'd imagine a 15 is also. You train to the distance you fight. On the whole, when I watch the old distance, fighters throw less punches then they do in 12 rounds, because thats what you have to do.

Wlad and Vitali could probably go 15, but not without tactical adjustments.

I can spar 12 no problem, just a sheen of sweat, some aches, and heavy breathing, but I tried 15 once, and it was quite literally the first time I've gassed since I was 19.

Chagaev is in shape. Always was. Watch the Valuev fight. There are few gameplans more exhausting than being on edge waiting to spring traps against a bigger dude roughing you up, and Chag managed without really running into a single conditioning snafu.

And there isn't as much distance in skills as people keep making out. Just because Louis could stop Chag early doesn't mean Chag is a C-class pro. He's a world class fighter, one of the best amateur boxers ever. Louis is just a bit better in most areas and very, very powerful. The distance between the very goods and the greats in terms of ability is way smaller then gets made out here.

The distance in resume is of course a while wide, but I feel we should be more respectful of the contenders of any era: Saying he's pedestrian, or he sucks, when he's probably one of the best 500 heavyweights out of some 100,000 that have ever boxed, rubs me the wrong way.
MagnaNasakki is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 02:55 PM   #74
Conn
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 802
vCash: 500
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnaNasakki View Post
The distance in resume is of course a while wide, but I feel we should be more respectful of the contenders of any era: Saying he's pedestrian, or he sucks, when he's probably one of the best 500 heavyweights out of some 100,000 that have ever boxed, rubs me the wrong way.
Well, you're probably right, but I tend to use those kind of terms in a relative way.
Pedestrian and mediocre for a top contender/title claimant isn't the same as pedestrian or mediocre applied to all fighters ever.

On the other hand, Seamus often tries to pretend that he really believes the contenders of the 1930s were just any old guys off the dole queue or happy-go-lucky farmers swinging for the fences having never even heard of boxing skill. But he's only kidding.
Conn is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 03:00 PM   #75
MagnaNasakki
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,829
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Ruslan Chagaev v. Joe Louis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conn View Post
Well, you're probably right, but I tend to use those kind of terms in a relative way.
Pedestrian and mediocre for a top contender/title claimant isn't the same as pedestrian or mediocre applied to all fighters ever.

On the other hand, Seamus often tries to pretend that he really believes the contenders of the 1930s were just any old guys off the dole queue or happy-go-lucky farmers swinging for the fences having never even heard of boxing skill. But he's only kidding.
Its not meant to come down on yall, but coming from an old pro, we'd LOVE more respect from fans. Nothing like getting told by someone who hasn't sacrificed half of what you have to the game that you suck.

If yall think Ruslan Chagaev was pedestrian and C-class, you'd tear me a new one if you saw some film. I'M C-Class, and pedestrian. Ruslan worked harder, was way better, and won a title. He deserves just a bit more respect. There is a healthy amount of men on Louis' CV he'd beat.

Joe was incredibly dominant, as talented as any heavyweight ever, and really very good, but nobody should be fooling themselves into thinking he beat a whos who of great heavyweights, like Ali did. Ruslan wouldn't win, he probably goes down early, but he'd still have been one of the 10 or 15 best guys Louis beat. Real talk.
MagnaNasakki is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013