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Old 02-09-2012, 07:50 AM   #226
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

The way Mayweather transfers defence to offence with the shoulder roll (such as in the clip with Shane) is masterful.

I guess with fewer and fewer fighters these days having mastered the art of short punching we'll see less and less of that kind of tactic.
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:52 AM   #227
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.



As you say, making the opponent overreach is a huge part of the style and can't believe I actually managed to miss that out. Another thing about the style is the fact that you appear to be so open to shots and with subtle movements and change in angles, you can draw the shot you want. For example, just squaring up a little bit can draw the right hand and you've set him up for the shoulder roll.

When people get frustrated with limitted success to the head, they often try to attack the body, which again remains generally well covered because of the position of the left hand/arm and right elbow/arm, obviously made do-able because of the reliance of the lead shoulder to protect the chin. You can see it so often where a fighter will get sick of missing the head so just try and hit the body for the sake of it and leave himself horribly open to bodyshots and uppercuts himself.

Great post BB, it's an intruiging style
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:00 AM   #228
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Originally Posted by Jdsm View Post


As you say, making the opponent overreach is a huge part of the style and can't believe I actually managed to miss that out. Another thing about the style is the fact that you appear to be so open to shots and with subtle movements and change in angles, you can draw the shot you want. For example, just squaring up a little bit can draw the right hand and you've set him up for the shoulder roll.

When people get frustrated with limitted success to the head, they often try to attack the body, which again remains generally well covered because of the position of the left hand/arm and right elbow/arm, obviously made do-able because of the reliance of the lead shoulder to protect the chin. You can see it so often where a fighter will get sick of missing the head so just try and hit the body for the sake of it and leave himself horribly open to bodyshots and uppercuts himself.

Great post BB, it's an intruiging style
I could think of loads of examples for this.

How Hatton went through nearly 50 fights without having his head practically taken off by an uppercut I'll never know.

Aside from maybe Katsidis, I can't think of many fighters that are more open to that shot than he was.

Though I suppose Hatton went the other way, going for the body too much and then head hunting.

The tactic that Shane used of jabbing the body, trying to draw the lead left hook and firing the right over it was probably the best ''plan'' I've seen anyone tried to use against Floyd, but because he can make the adjustment and counter with stinging shots you've got to be more watchful.

Not many people have actually used a gameplan as such, they've just fallen into the trap of thinking that Floyd's a wimp who doesn't like it up him and make mistakes whilst throwing too many or smothering their work, or the Ortiz way of being obsessed with establishing foot position and in the end having it used against him to make him look absolutely gash (which he is in all honesty).

The lead left hook is Floyd's one obvious weakness to me, he throws it from too low a position, but because he can correct so quickly you've got to have the handspeed to draw it and counter. Mosley is one of the few in recent years with that in his armoury.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:10 AM   #229
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Floyd actually continually changes things he doesn't just fight out of the Philly, he also adopts a more traditional stance at times and he then will go completely unorthodox at other times! That's the problem with him he adapts very well- that's why the likes of hatton and de la Hoya managed to grab early rounds from him. Think of his style it's pretty hard to picture compared to the likes of trinidad, whitiker, even manny....
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:17 AM   #230
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

I was surprised how flat footed Oscar looked in their fight personally. Alright, he was pretty old and had only fought once in nearly three years, but still....

I really don't think Floyd Sr was the right fit for him by a long shot. In fact I can't think of a trainer who is more overrated currently. Actually I'm struggling to think who would have been the best bet for Oscar

He's not any better than Buddy McGirt IMO.... who looks really good in the gym but is a shite cornerman.

Roach and Beristain are the two leading trainers if you ask me. Nacho is a brilliant teacher, even if his fighters are a bit samey they rarely have the type of flaws that we see so often in kids coming out of the ams in Europe and the US. Roach meanwhile has just seen it all, not sure how much longer he can go on though.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:21 AM   #231
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

I think emanual steward worked well for oscar- his best performance for me though was the first Chavez fight - who trained him for that?
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:21 AM   #232
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Floyd actually continually changes things he doesn't just fight out of the Philly, he also adopts a more traditional stance at times and he then will go completely unorthodox at other times! That's the problem with him he adapts very well- that's why the likes of hatton and de la Hoya managed to grab early rounds from him. Think of his style it's pretty hard to picture compared to the likes of trinidad, whitiker, even manny....
No matter how much you might hate Floyd, for whatever reason - If you haven't studied his entire career from a technical standpoint, you're only hindering your own knowledge.

****ing love this thread, it's shit at my age because non of the people I'm mates with are into boxing or they just watch the 'big fights' and don't care about the technicalities.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:37 AM   #233
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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I think emanual steward worked well for oscar- his best performance for me though was the first Chavez fight - who trained him for that?
I don't know.

Which fights did Steward work with him for?

I'm split on how to rate DLH to be honest. On the one hand he defeated lots of good fighters in lots of weight classes, but lost practically all the big ones.

Plus, the way he ''fought'' in the late rounds against Trinidad puts me off too. Tito wasn't going to knock him out in a million years, and the Mosley defeats look bad - considering he held a size and style advantage.

(Though of course you could credit Shane for overcoming this)

It's not a bad defeat by any means, but given that Mosley struggled a lot with boxers - being stood on his head by Forrest and Wright proves this... DLH ought to have been able to get over the line relatively comfortably.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:49 AM   #234
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

That's the best Oscar i've seen too. The one who beat Chavez in the first fight. 140 was his best weight by far for me. And he should've stayed there for longer and created a bigger legacy. Left way too soon. He was just so sleek at that weight and was growing into a murderous boxer puncher before he moved up and gave away a lot of physicality at welterweight. He never quite stayed on his toes and regained that positive body rhythm he had. I loved watching Oscar. His jab and that half uppercut half left hook was something kind of different. In truth he was one of my favourite fighters.

- He clearly beat Trinidad. Put on a clinic for 8 rounds and took no chances later on when he had blisters all over his feet. Trinidad was a monster who put a lot of mental pressure on you and could put your lights out at anytime. If Oscar does anything else but be ultra cautious in that fight late on, there is a chance he gets hurt and stopped. He'd put so much work into putting that clinic on and boxing Trinidad's head off for 8 rounds he was kind of spent. The work was done. Fight was and should've been in the bank and he got jobbed. No other way to look at that Trinidad fight for me. I really don't understand the 'he ran in the later rounds, so deserved to lose' train of thought. That's not how fights are scored.

- Mosley fought out of his skin in an underrated classic in the first fight and Oscar beat him clearly in the rematch and got jobbed yet again.

He also has perhaps the best resumé of his era and of the last 30 years. Fought pretty much every one. I rate Oscar pretty highly.

Don't think Manny Steward was Oscar's trainer for the Chavez fights. Think it was Robert Alcazar. Steward when he came on board did kind of improve Oscar's right hand a little bit.
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Old 02-09-2012, 09:55 AM   #235
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Yup, if everyone had Oscars attitude to taking on all comers, there would be a lot more great fights made
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:32 AM   #236
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Oscars under-rated by most.... One thing I love using him as an example for, for my dudes is catching shots and blocking. Ian Darke used to mention it - but thats a real skill.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7iXziqTvjA[/ame]
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:58 AM   #237
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Who's ganna do footwork?
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:04 AM   #238
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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^ Good post jdsm

Could you talk a little about the footwork?

Do most guys who use the shell adopt a slightly wider stance than normal?
I use a wider than usual stance when I'm using the style, with a good bend at the knees. The style relies a lot of quick transitions from defense to offense from unorthadox angles, so you need to make sure you maintain good balance. Without the wider stance and bend in the knees, you're going to find it very difficult to slip under punches and also deal with the quick ongoing transfer of weight required to avoid and roll with punches. That will ultimately compromise your ability to create angles and counterpunching opportunities and also your ability to capitalise on them. Balance is key.

I'll touch on it more when I talk about the offensive aspects of the style.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:08 AM   #239
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Oscars under-rated by most.... One thing I love using him as an example for, for my dudes is catching shots and blocking. Ian Darke used to mention it - but thats a real skill.
There was just such a natural lean and chin tuck to his boxing stance that was kind of throwback in a way.
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:29 AM   #240
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There was just such a natural lean and chin tuck to his boxing stance that was kind of throwback in a way.
Look at his feet though... No surprise he never ever knocked anyone down with the right
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