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Old 02-23-2012, 04:51 AM   #646
slip&counter
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

One thing i've always wondered. Do you encourage a fighter to throw hooks with their thumbs up or thumbs down? The conventional way is to throw it with the thumbs down, but some fighters who were great hookers use to throw it the other way.
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:07 AM   #647
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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Again, if modern s&c is so good why do people gas within 12 rounds?

Depends on the fighter. Fighters have improved their conditioning by changing from old school to modern conditioning Plus it's scientificly proven
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:16 AM   #648
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Blowing out of their arse after 4 rounds. That modern day conditioning works wonders.
They might be still blowing even with traditional conditioning depends on the fighter and their proportion of fast and slow twitch fibres.
You and Flea can keep on being ignorant :

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Old 02-23-2012, 06:30 AM   #649
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Depends on the fighter. Fighters have improved their conditioning by changing from old school to modern conditioning Plus it's scientificly proven
Was the routine/training plan you mention for Holyfield before the Douglas fight designed to bulk him up without losing speed?

In his book he mentions adopting different conditioning methods before the 1st Qawi fight but that didnt seem to involve any weightlifting or plyo.

Imo Holy's stamina didnt improve as he got bigger, it got worse
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:36 AM   #650
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Was the routine/training plan you mention for Holyfield before the Douglas fight designed to bulk him up without losing speed?

In his book he mentions adopting different conditioning methods before the 1st Qawi fight but that didnt seem to involve any weightlifting or plyo.

Imo Holy's stamina didnt improve as he got bigger, it got worse
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When I was brought aboard his team, prior to his fight against Buster Douglas in 1990, Evander was in sad physical condition considering the specific demands of his sport. I immediately tested Evander's responses to three minutes of boxing specific total body work (see the 3-minute drill description below), which brought his heart rate above 180 bpm. He needed a full 7 or 8 minutes to recover back to 120 bpm after this single bout, analogous to one hard boxing round. What was worse, after doing five of the 3-minute drills with a one minute rest between, his heart rate remained above 150 between bouts. In short, he did not have the capacity to sustain a high performance level for even half of the duration of a professional fight.

My responsibilities were limited to the physical conditioning component of Evander's training, which had to be integrated into his skills and sparring training. Boxers require not only agility, speed and strength in short, explosive bursts, but also a high level of anaerobic strength endurance in order to perform these bursts over and over for ten rounds or more. I designed Evander's training regimen and nutritional protocol to reflect these all-important elements. The road work ended promptly and completely.
After the 12 week cycle described below, Evander recovered quickly from intense activity, even after a series of ten, 3-minute drills. His agility and limit strength levels increased, and his lean Baudot increased from 208 to 218.
The conditioning program described below was the program I personally supervised Evander through prior to the Buster Douglas fight. He also used the same training cycle in preparation for his most recent fights against Mike Tyson, but I was not there personally to oversee his training. This preparation was supervised by a friend of mine in the strength coaching profession who assures me the Evander followed the prescribed program precisely.
I think losing stamina as you increase muscle weight is expected
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:44 AM   #651
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Originally Posted by slip&counter View Post
One thing i've always wondered. Do you encourage a fighter to throw hooks with their thumbs up or thumbs down? The conventional way is to throw it with the thumbs down, but some fighters who were great hookers use to throw it the other way.
I always say thumb down because I think it encourages the elbow to be more correctly positioned.

I'd probably encourage a fighter to throw thumb down, but if he was more comfortable throwing thumb up, and his technique was otherwise sound, go with it. I've found it's a bit like being left or right handed, one just feels more normal.

I reckon the hook is the most subjective of shots. Here's a gif of the so called "greatest left hook of all time" and for me it's far from perfect IMO, but hard to argue with the result! Thumb up from what I can see.

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*his right hand is in no mans land
*he pulls pack his left arm a little
*he doesn't get his elbow up high enough
*he doesn't open his hips and sit down on it much

But he knocked his man out with impeccable timing and accuracy. I love the little head flinch SRR makes after the shot in which he anticipates the counter, just in case his man didn't crumple.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:18 AM   #652
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

I thought for a left hook it should be thumb down when at closer range to drive through with the elbow. At longer range its thumb up & use the bicep more

Does that make sense?
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:31 AM   #653
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

The thumb pointing down IS the 'right' way generally. You can do damage to your thumb the other way. The thumb i think should be more on the top of the middle finger that's what happens when you have it facing down. But what happens when you have it up. You end up having it more on your index finger, and i don't know how that affects the dynamics of the punch. I've always found the thumb down more comfortable and 'proper'.

That shot by Robinson was pretty perfect imo. The way he set it up and the delivary was spot on. What the gif doesn't show aswell is what he's done with his feet. I think the right hand is okay and is ready to go up if a left hook comes. He gets good rotation and pivot with his foot. The best part of it is the brillient punch placement. Really good punch placement can make up for a lot of things. It's hard to tell if he throws it with the thumb up. Probabily the best hooker who throw it with the thumb in that unconventional position was Joe Frazier.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:37 AM   #654
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

I have a few things to add to this. there seems to be a long term argument between thumb down or thumb up.
i am a firm believer in thumb up. the mechanics of the shot become a lot harder to throw thumb down. thumb up means you can hook close and further away.
most shit hookers you see at amateur level are persevering with thumb down and end up without the elbow behind it at all and no structural support so it is a shit shot.
my last bit of evidence. ask anyone to name a fighter with a great left hook.

typical examples, tyson, jons jr, trinidad etc etc. i challenge you to find a great left hooker who throws thumb down. they might talk about doing it but watch the videos and none of them do! FACT.....That is my biggest bit of info on this thread, biggest secret divulged thumb down hook is bullshit.

someone mentioned david haye for a breakdown.

i will break him down defensively. there seems to be an illusion that haye is elusive and has a great defence. this stems form his performance against valuev and wlad. mainly wlad.
in many threads recently people have cited hayes defense as another one of the reasons he would beat chisora. not so imo

against wlad, haye stayed out of range being 'elusive' confident in the knowledge wlad would protect his chin and only throw a maximum of 1 or 2 shots at a time. wlad has never come forward and thrown lots of punches in range as he is protecting his dodgy chin and is always thinking of taking that little step back to protect himself. additionally as wlad is throwing his punches from so far away, you get that little longer to see them coming and avoid them.

staying out of range and moving your head knowing you only have a jab to avoid is not defense. this coupled with rarely throwing punches and when you do onyl 1 at a time is not boxing. it is definiely running. whittaker had defense as can be seen by the fact he made people miss and then hit them back repeatedly. all davids moves were made were 6 inches out of his punching range and he was content to stay there knowing he could do nothing back to wlad.

if haye was fighting someone who got into range and threw lots of punches / combos he would get hit a lot! ruiz hit him a lot with the jab. as early as round 2! chisora if he survived the first few rounds wwould get in close and land a lot on haye and break him down. imo
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:40 AM   #655
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Originally Posted by DrMo View Post
I thought for a left hook it should be thumb down when at closer range to drive through with the elbow. At longer range its thumb up & use the bicep more

Does that make sense?
Could be wrong, but i never really thought there was much relation between the thumb and the elbow position. Elbow i think is pretty much independent of it and can be positioned and maneuvered, no matter which ever way the thumb is pointing. As i say though i could be wrong on that.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:43 AM   #656
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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They might be still blowing even with traditional conditioning depends on the fighter and their proportion of fast and slow twitch fibres.
You and Flea can keep on being ignorant :

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Yeah I just watch boxing instead of reading a biased article. It works for a lot of sports, no doubt. It does not work for boxing, the evidence is there rider IN THE FIGHTS.

Anyway, this is a technical thread, not a conditioning thread. You obviously have an agenda, leave it outside
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:45 AM   #657
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Thank you Slip. There is a modern misconception that running away and unnecessarily moving your head is 'defence'. How can it be defence of you're well outside of punching range with nothing to defend?
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:47 AM   #658
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

As for modern s&c, two of the fastest fighters of the past few decades, Roy Jones and Mike Tyson, never used it, they were strictly old school.

When they did? Oh, yeah they were blowing out of their arses within a few rounds I imagine the scientific evidence doesn't mention that?
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:50 AM   #659
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Originally Posted by norfolkinchance View Post
I have a few things to add to this. there seems to be a long term argument between thumb down or thumb up.
i am a firm believer in thumb up. the mechanics of the shot become a lot harder to throw thumb down. thumb up means you can hook close and further away.
most shit hookers you see at amateur level are persevering with thumb down and end up without the elbow behind it at all and no structural support so it is a shit shot.
my last bit of evidence. ask anyone to name a fighter with a great left hook.
Joe Frazier is a great example for this argument and is of course one of the best left hooks thrown with the thumb up. It doesn't get much better than that.

What Frazier used to say is the thumb up for the left hook is more powerful with the thumb pointing upwards. It's like picking something up with a clench fist or an open fist for some people in terms of how comfortable it is. I've done an excercise where i pointed out my left hook, got someone to pull it away with me trying to resist as hard as i could. I then tried it with the thumb down and i definitely noticed it was more easier to resist with the thumb up. It's very interesting. I was always told thumb down.
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:53 AM   #660
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Thank you Slip. There is a modern misconception that running away and unnecessarily moving your head is 'defence'. How can it be defence of you're well outside of punching range with nothing to defend?

that was me not slip. but I will take your plaudits.......
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