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Old 03-27-2012, 05:05 PM   #1171
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Old 03-28-2012, 10:42 AM   #1172
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:15 AM   #1173
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I can see why it could annoy people. But i really didn't see it as a big deal, yes perhaps it was a little excessive, but it was a great, smart tactic and if the referee isn't ganna warn him or deduct a point, i don't see why he should stop.

Clinching/mauling on the inside is not a big foul to me. In fact i see properly clinching as a skill. I've seen too many fighters lose fights and get into trouble because they didn't know how to initiate effective clinches. Molina was disarming Kirkland with it.

My problem would've been if he was ONLY clinching and using that as a survival tactic and stinking the joint with it and just trying to go the distance and not win. That's the impression you would get the way people are reacting to it. The clinching was just one part of it, the guy was dominating the fight and working inside too. It's also up to Kirkland to do something about it.

I think the reaction of the commentators and the time and expectations are what exacerbated it. I truly believe people just wanted to see a tear up with the reputation of Kirkland and how his last fight was and when Molina came with a different look that irritated people, particularly at that late hour.

I can't get mad at a dude who just schooled someone.

Agree. I dont have a problem with it.

Molina was facing a big puncher. The best way to negate a punch is to smoother his power(Hatton-Zoo), or to reset him so he can get that power off(Hopkins-Tito). The holding also helped break up Kirklands rhythm.

Kirkland could of found ways to punch, and at the end of the day, he is the more physically stronger of the two, so why didn't he get physical with Molina? If anything that is one of things that was missing for his arsenal in that fight.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:27 AM   #1174
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Good post Gooners
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:40 AM   #1175
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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I can see why it could annoy people. But i really didn't see it as a big deal, yes perhaps it was a little excessive, but it was a great, smart tactic and if the referee isn't ganna warn him or deduct a point, i don't see why he should stop.

Clinching/mauling on the inside is not a big foul to me. In fact i see properly clinching as a skill. I've seen too many fighters lose fights and get into trouble because they didn't know how to initiate effective clinches. Molina was disarming Kirkland with it.

My problem would've been if he was ONLY clinching and using that as a survival tactic and stinking the joint with it and just trying to go the distance and not win. That's the impression you would get the way people are reacting to it. The clinching was just one part of it, the guy was dominating the fight and working inside too. It's also up to Kirkland to do something about it.

I think the reaction of the commentators and the time and expectations are what exacerbated it. I truly believe people just wanted to see a tear up with the reputation of Kirkland and how his last fight was and when Molina came with a different look that irritated people, particularly at that late hour.

I can't get mad at a dude who just schooled someone.
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Agree. I dont have a problem with it.

Molina was facing a big puncher. The best way to negate a punch is to smoother his power(Hatton-Zoo), or to reset him so he can get that power off(Hopkins-Tito). The holding also helped break up Kirklands rhythm.

Kirkland could of found ways to punch, and at the end of the day, he is the more physically stronger of the two, so why didn't he get physical with Molina? If anything that is one of things that was missing for his arsenal in that fight.
Yeah, this. Personally I don't really know what else could've been expected of Molina in order to nullify Kirkland's strengths other than the tactics he implemented. Molina's lateral movement has always been lacking, he's good at positioning himself to counter and making little side-steps here and there to create better angles for himself, but for the most part that has been displayed against fellow boxer-types(Lara, Cintron) and certainly not against someone as relentless and plain big as Kirkland.

It was either do what he did, or try to exchange with him and face an inevitable KO defeat. Added to that, Molina worked plenty in the clinches. In fact I'd say the majority of the points he scored in the fight were from freeing up an arm and catching Kirkland while he was staring at the referee hoping he would intervene.

I haven't got a problem with that type of work, Andre Ward is another who uses it to even greater effect. The only time I have an issue with it is when you see guys doing the type of holding that McPhilbin did last Friday. It was blatant hugging used only as a method of survival because he was gassed. Just my viewpoint, anyways.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:45 AM   #1176
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

That's the difference between, easy example, Molina and Khan. Molina wanted to clinch to impose his game, not clinched and manhandled his man because he couldn't implement his game.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:53 AM   #1177
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That's the difference between, easy example, Molina and Khan. Molina wanted to clinch to impose his game, not clinched and manhandled his man because he couldn't implement his game.
That's also true. I remember seeing someone post something the other day along the lines of ''Khan better hope he gets that ref in the rematch/Molina is lucky he didn't have the referee from Khan-Peterson'', but I think most (competent)referees can distinguish the difference between smothering your opponent on the inside, squaring him up, nullifying his offence and going to work with your free arm and what Khan did, which was clasping his hands around Peterson's head and shoving him back because he wasn't allowing Khan an abundance of space to move around in.
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Old 03-28-2012, 12:59 PM   #1178
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Agree. I dont have a problem with it.

Molina was facing a big puncher. The best way to negate a punch is to smoother his power(Hatton-Zoo), or to reset him so he can get that power off(Hopkins-Tito). The holding also helped break up Kirklands rhythm.

Kirkland could of found ways to punch, and at the end of the day, he is the more physically stronger of the two, so why didn't he get physical with Molina? If anything that is one of things that was missing for his arsenal in that fight.


He also didn't let Kirkland punch while he was set. And this relates back to Trinidad/Vargas we were discussing previously, where Vargas allowed Trinidad to punch while he was set. Guys like Kirkland almost tip off their punches because they tell you when a power punch is coming. He always has to be set and Molina read that.

Kirkland is not in their class, but he's similar to people like Trinidad and Diego Corrales in that sense. They were levels above him, but they still had the same problem. They liked to be set to punch. Everybody does to a degree. But some more than others and with guys like that moving/smothering targets throws them off. Where as guys like say a Jose Luis Castillo or a Jeff Fenech, could track you down and not worry about punching you. Kirkland tries to power punch all the time and Molina did a good job of not allowing him to do it.

Where as someone like Vargas allowed Trinidad to punch while he was set. Which was a big mistake because it made the fight a high contact fight which then of course gives Trinidad the edge because he is stronger in that area. If Molina made it too high contact he would've been playing right into Kirklands hands.

Someone like Vargas showed his immaturity by fighting the exciting the fight, instead of the right fight. He chose to excite, instead of fighting right. Let’s say Vargas fought Trinidad across between how, Barrera fought Hamed and Molina fought Kirkland. He could have won. That’s also what the corner is there for. You have to demand obedience from the fighter. They let Vargas fight the wrong fight. Vargas should have kept jabbing and turning Tito. Then Smother him on the Andre Ward tip and he would have had a helluva chance.
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:26 PM   #1179
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He also didn't let Kirkland punch while he was set. And this relates back to Trinidad/Vargas we were discussing previously, where Vargas allowed Trinidad to punch while he was set. Guys like Kirkland almost tip off their punches because they tell you when a power punch is coming. He always has to be set and Molina read that.

Kirkland is not in their class, but he's similar to people like Trinidad and Diego Corrales in that sense. They were levels above him, but they still had the same problem. They liked to be set to punch. Everybody does to a degree. But some more than others and with guys like that moving/smothering targets throws them off. Where as guys like say a Jose Luis Castillo or a Jeff Fenech, could track you down and not worry about punching you. Kirkland tries to power punch all the time and Molina did a good job of not allowing him to do it.

Where as someone like Vargas allowed Trinidad to punch while he was set. Which was a big mistake because it made the fight a high contact fight which then of course gives Trinidad the edge because he is stronger in that area. If Molina made it too high contact he would've been playing right into Kirklands hands.

Someone like Vargas showed his immaturity by fighting the exciting the fight, instead of the right fight. He chose to excite, instead of fighting right. Letís say Vargas fought Trinidad across between how, Barrera fought Hamed and Molina fought Kirkland. He could have won. Thatís also what the corner is there for. You have to demand obedience from the fighter. They let Vargas fight the wrong fight. Vargas should have kept jabbing and turning Tito. Then Smother him on the Andre Ward tip and he would have had a helluva chance.

Yeah Kirkland fights in a predictable rhythm. You can almost tell by watching his shoulders when the punch is gonna come.

Tito had a habit of edging his left foot closer so he could uncork the left hook. Hopkins was wise to it and so hit him with the lead right, or stuck the jab on him, or moved, to break up his rhythm.

Mayweather-Corrales is a perfect example of how to reset someone. Corrales was following Floyd around the ring. That's how Floyd was able to hit him with so many left hooks. He would reset him, then hit him with left hook whilst he was in transition to catching up with Floyd.

I personally question Vargas's stamina levels to. He liked to fight in bursts(Winky, Quartey), and he looked worse for wear in the latter stages of the Dela Hoya fight, so I deffo think there were some stamina issues with him.

Thing is to, I should imagine Joppy, Reid, Vargas thought that being legitimate 154/160 pounders, might of thought they weren't gonna let this smaller guy bully them.
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Old 03-28-2012, 01:28 PM   #1180
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I understand people clinching when in trouble i'm happy with it within understandable reason, but i don't see a skill in leeching to a fighter when falling short with a punch Slip or just do it to control a fighters attacks. He clinched from first few moments and just persisted with it. If he worked more on inside i'd of appreciated it but he only threw now and then. At times he did some lovely work but wouldn't do it enough during rounds. Was like watching MMA .

Kirkland should of done more but rules are rules, they should be kept and that's persistent holding. I seen other fighters bashed for using similar tactics. I'm glad he got DQ'd. Horrible display in my book, Kirkland was a lucky boy no doubts..

Gotta disagree on this one mate.

Ruiz and Wlad have mastered the fall into clinch, but then where would Evander Holyfield be if he could not clinch Tyson.
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Old 03-28-2012, 07:09 PM   #1181
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

I really don't like the excessively high, holding the gloves in front of you stance. Don't know what anyone else things about it.

The stance i prefer is a Ricardo Lopez or Ray Robinson one. They both held their hands perfectly to me for their given styles. Robinson and Lopez had a similar guard, Robinson’s was just lower. I understand why he did that though. Everyone can try this. Hold your hands above your eyes and try to punch. Then hold your hands around throat level and try to punch. I’m sure you will get more leverage around throat level. Robinson got off better from down there so he baited guys in and knocked their heads off.

For me Finito Lopez had arguably the best stance and balance i've ever seen. His feet and hands moved in sync. No holes in his guard whatsoever and his punches rolled effortlessly from a stance and guard where the left shoulder was held up, but not holding the guard up to his face. He would slice his target and fight off centre to the point where his shoulders were almost diagonally in line. You will hardly EVER see him square on.
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Old 03-29-2012, 06:33 AM   #1182
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

Floyd sparring for the Cotto fight. If anyone hasn't seen it. Notice how he's working on things and not just trying to beatdown the sparring partner. It's a rehearsal and his sparring partner is doing a job of immitating Cotto. From this it's almost certain Floyd will try and walk Cotto down and potshot him over the top.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFmunaSGgBg[/ame]
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Old 03-29-2012, 11:44 AM   #1183
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

I'll tell you guys someone who is a minefield to analyse technically. Eusebio Pedroza. One of the trickiest, dirtiest, craftiest fighters i've ever seen. He knew every little trick in the book.

It's a shame we didn't see him against the likes of Gomez and Salvador Sanchez. They would've been great fights.

All three of them fighters were in the featherweight division along with Azumah Nelson. I think Pedroza is an all time great featherweight and perhaps doesn't the credit he deserves.

I think the problem with assessing how a guy like Pedroza would do in hypothetical matchups and the reason he's not brought up a lot, is Pedroza is well rounded but not dynamic. Dynamic fighters are always more pleasing to the eye. But it does not necessarily mean they are better. For example Archie Moore is well rounded but Roy Jones is dynamic. People would youtube Roy more because he’s more pleasing to look at.

For those that are not familiar with Pedroza, I would describe him as a right handed Joel Casamayor with a little twist of Bernard Hopkins. Pedroza was great and dirty. I believe he would given Sanchez and Gomez both hell. Salvador Sanchez had a great short reign before died at 23 years old but people overlook sometimes he struggled a little bit with Patrick Ford and Pat Cowdell.

Pedroza was much better than both of them and he out performed Sanchez vs. Ford. Ford held Sanchez to a close fight and Pedroza stopped him in 13 rounds. Not that it tells us who would win between the two.

I do feel that Sanchez would edge Pedroza. Sanchez had wonderful feet and I believe he would slide around Pedroza enough, in a tactical, intense intriguing type of fight, one which some people would probabily find 'boring'.

As for Gomez, i think it would also be nip and tuck. If I had to pick I would say Gomez by late stoppage in a great fight. Pedroza was tall but he liked it on the inside and I think he would get caught in there. Gomez was arguably one of the best punchers of the 80’s. That’s saying something when you consider Tommy Hearns, Edwin Rosario, Julian Jackson and Mike Tyson all fought during that time.

I really like watching Pedroza.

Last edited by slip&counter; 03-29-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:41 PM   #1184
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hE WOULD'VE KICKED Gomez's ass, he was no feather.

You seen Zamora decimate Pedroza, Slip?
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Old 03-29-2012, 12:48 PM   #1185
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Default Re: The all things technical thread.

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Floyd sparring for the Cotto fight. If anyone hasn't seen it. Notice how he's working on things and not just trying to beatdown the sparring partner. It's a rehearsal and his sparring partner is doing a job of immitating Cotto. From this it's almost certain Floyd will try and walk Cotto down and potshot him over the top.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

The **** is with the dickriders around the rings who keep saying inconsequential shit like 'nothin' and 'all day'. Someone should make one of those ****suckers get in with the sparring partner.

Last edited by AndrewFFC; 03-29-2012 at 01:03 PM.
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