The all things technical thread.

[slip&counter]

As i say i think he's for me the 6th or 7th greatest featherweight ever. 7 years as champ. Record title defenses, which he should get a lot more credit for. Juan La Porte, Lockridge, Taylor, Lujan, Royal Kobashi, Ford all good names. The level of his opposition was on the most part very good. But that's why it would've been great to seem him with the likes of Sanchez, Gomez and Nelson. History changing bouts they would have been.

He was really a complete fighter, maybe sometimes we put too much emphasis on him being 'dirty' but he was MUCH more than that. A chameleon, very talented and skilled. Freak of a featherweight with his height, output and aggression and he was also very smart.

What makes him even better for me is. Pedroza was knocked out cold 3 times before he ever won the featherweight title while he was a bantamweight. He was around 19 or 20 years old at the time. He moved up to featherweight, became more savvy, more of a technician and was never stopped again in the last 16 years of his career.

Just a man, who as i say gets lost in the sauce of all those other great names at the time.

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by DrMo

Dont know if you caught this Slip, a behind the ropes special that was on earlier tonight that has some really good sections. I found it fascinating watching Hunter working with Khan, he's such an interesting man to listen to.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Cheers for that, Mo. I'll watch it later.

You got any thoughts on what you've seen?

It's a shame Khan never found someone like Hunter earlier, as i fear it may be too late for him. Also, I don't know if this is true, but i was told that Khan's first choice was Naseem Richardson, but Naseem told him he was fighting at the wrong weight and he would only train him if he moved up. But Khan disagreed and said he wanted to stay at light welter.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

As i say i think he's for me the 6th or 7th greatest featherweight ever. 7 years as champ. Record title defenses, which he should get a lot more credit for. Juan La Porte, Lockridge, Taylor, Lujan, Royal Kobashi, Ford all good names. The level of his opposition was on the most part very good. But that's why it would've been great to seem him with the likes of Sanchez, Gomez and Nelson. History changing bouts they would have been.

He was really a complete fighter, maybe sometimes we put too much emphasis on him being 'dirty' but he was MUCH more than that. A chameleon, very talented and skilled. Freak of a featherweight with his height, output and aggression and he was also very smart.

What makes him even better for me is. Pedroza was knocked out cold 3 times before he ever won the featherweight title while he was a bantamweight. He was around 19 or 20 years old at the time. He moved up to featherweight, became more savvy, more of a technician and was never stopped again in the last 16 years of his career.

Just a man, who as i say gets lost in the sauce of all those other great names at the time.

Haven't read the rest yet but no, no, no and no. He was not the champion! He won a vacant strap. He was not the consensus no.1 until Sanchez died.

As for Gomez, not a good feather IMO, Pedroza would've sparked him. And as for how good Pedroza was, I've already said; massive fan. As for his earlier losses, I uploaded Zamora starching him (no shame there) Eusebio was a weight drained pup.

But my opening reply is why we disagree; he was not the legit' champ' so a lot of his defences mean absolutely zilch.

You seen the Lujan fight? Absolutely brilliant fun, but against a past prime bantamweight. Pedroza was past his best as well don't get me wrong, but Lujan was not a 'proper' featherweight contender and he hit Pedroza shit loads. Still, Lujan, and fellow Panamanian Carrasquilla, are decent wins, as is Spider Nemoto, an ickle awkward bastard (who Marcel had beaten prior, in fact was the only man to stop him).

Marcel; better calibre of wins, better operator. No doubt in my mind. But as I have him at around no.4 or 5 there might be more dispute there. You HAVE to watch Marcel Vs Antonio Gomez, a brilliant boxer of the 60s, and as this is the technical thread watch Gomez Vs Shozo Saijo; Gomez is a phenom! Held wins over DeJesus and Cervantes as well, both pre-prime admittedly. Marcel dismantles him. Marcel should've unified but was robbed against Shibata, which I also have, and beat Arguello, gave a young Duran serious hassle, never stopped, retired as champ' etc etc now that is a Panamanian featherweight champ# that's underrated!

I guess 6 or 7 is more than fair for Pedroza (I used to have him higher) but personally, not for some of the reasons you're stating.

But, as it's you (someone I consider a pal) and it's your critera bigging up one of my faves; I can't really complain

[Flea Man]

Also Slip, very interested to hear your take on the Taylor fight; do you not think Taylor's negative showing there was very indicative of the athletic types you get nowadays, like Dirrell? Made Pedroza look horrendous, very horrible fight where a draw was almost justified because of it.

[DrMo]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

Cheers for that, Mo. I'll watch it later.

You got any thoughts on what you've seen?

It's a shame Khan never found someone like Hunter earlier, as i fear it may be too late for him. Also, I don't know if this is true, but i was told that Khan's first choice was Naseem Richardson, but Naseem told him he was fighting at the wrong weight and he would only train him if he moved up. But Khan disagreed and said he wanted to stay at light welter.

You'll love it Slip Hunter is working on several different things with Khan.

In the 1st bit he's talking about movement & controlling the ring, how Khan should position himself to stay away from the ropes, out of harms way & off the direct line of fire. He's just schooling Khan on basic ring generalship, something he needs to work on because he's still going left when he should be turning right & vice versa.

The 2nd part he has Khan in close & making him slip, he's standing on Khan's lead foot to prevent him hopping away & encourage him to turn rather than pull straight back. Hunter is making sure he stays low & working on his footwork, the emphasis is to set his feet 1st & assume the correct stance before letting his hands go.

Also, as well as the blocking you mentioned in an earlier post he's got Khan using his left hand to deflect/parry shots & as a distraction to set up the right. Sadly they didnt show the sparring with Angulo but from Hunter's comments you can hear Khan is still reverting to form when under pressure, which is to be expected at this early stage.

I'm sure there's a lot more in there you'll pick up on, just my thoughts

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by Flea Man

Also Slip, very interested to hear your take on the Taylor fight; do you not think Taylor's negative showing there was very indicative of the athletic types you get nowadays, like Dirrell? Made Pedroza look horrendous, very horrible fight where a draw was almost justified because of it.

I thought Taylor was very talented. But the problem for him was he spent too long in the ams and was pretty much wasted by the time he got to the pros. He's one of those underachievers in the pros like Howard Davis Jr or Mark Breland. His prime was just very short.

I think he was just as fast as Dirrell, if not faster. But probabily more fragile and not enough dig on him.

I thought Pedroza did enough to keep his title in a absolutely stinker. Taylor was just too wary of Pedroza's firepower and fought that way to try and pickpocket the fight from Pedroza in his hometown, he just ran and too much. He also faded in the later rounds.

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by DrMo

You'll love it Slip Hunter is working on several different things with Khan.

In the 1st bit he's talking about movement & controlling the ring, how Khan should position himself to stay away from the ropes, out of harms way & off the direct line of fire. He's just schooling Khan on basic ring generalship, something he needs to work on because he's still going left when he should be turning right & vice versa.

The 2nd part he has Khan in close & making him slip, he's standing on Khan's lead foot to prevent him hopping away & encourage him to turn rather than pull straight back. Hunter is making sure he stays low & working on his footwork, the emphasis is to set his feet 1st & assume the correct stance before letting his hands go.

Also, as well as the blocking you mentioned in an earlier post he's got Khan using his left hand to deflect/parry shots & as a distraction to set up the right. Sadly they didnt show the sparring with Angulo but from Hunter's comments you can hear Khan is still reverting to form when under pressure, which is to be expected at this early stage.

I'm sure there's a lot more in there you'll pick up on, just my thoughts

Sounds like a brillient watch. I'll get into it later tonight. Man i would love to talk shop with Virgil Hunter.

[Flea Man]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

I thought Taylor was very talented. But the problem for him was he spent too long in the ams and was pretty much wasted by the time he got to the pros. He's one of those underachievers in the pros like Howard Davis Jr or Mark Breland. His prime was just very short.

I think he was just as fast as Dirrell, if not faster. But probabily more fragile and not enough dig on him.

I thought Pedroza did enough to keep his title in a absolutely stinker. Taylor was just too wary of Pedroza's firepower and fought that way to try and pickpocket the fight from Pedroza in his hometown, he just ran and too much. He also faded in the later rounds.

Agree 100%

[slip&counter]

Flea, Check this out. You've probabily seen it already. Brief footage of Holman Williams, the only bit of footage of him to my knowledge. How have i not seen this before.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zje1xxmDrdA[/ame]

[slip&counter]

I love that short right hand to the body Williams is throwing in that footage.

Btw. For those who don't know.

Holman Williams is considered one of the best fighters in history. Williams was that good. He was a original member of the black murderers row and footage of him was thought to be non-existant. Back in the days of segregation, when black fighters were blatantly denied opportunities to fight because of the colour of their skin, Williams beat the great Charley Burley twice (out of six fights) for the Coloured Middleweight title.

He also has wins over Cocoa Kid and Archie Moore. Being forced to fight all of those killers about 7 or 8 times apiece kind of used him up a little. He got a big shot against Marcel Cerdan and did well in defeat but by the time he got that opportunity, he had already seen better days. He fought admirably but lost to Cerdan. He also fought 2 killers. Henry Brimm and Jose Basora who were those tough kind of contemporary fighters that every generation has. In this generation they would be Sakio Bika or Emanuel Augustus only better. Brimm and Basora were able to score draws against Ray Robinson a few years after Williams fought them.

IMO. The Black Murder’s Row should have their own spot in the Hall of Fame. They should be inducted as a group if not individuals. Really sad that those great fighters were forced to fight each other so many times and rarely get title shots.

[satan80]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

I've given up on some of Khan's flaws. I don't think he can change them as they're too ingrained.

He should just concentrate on what he CAN change.

Two things for me that he can work on and improve.

- Work on his feet, get better educated footwork and learn to box in tight circles. For a man who relies on his feet so much it's criminal how bad his footwork is. He also circles into punches and goes far too wide, giving off a running impression and trapping himself in pressure points. So he can at least learn to box in tighter circles and get underneath big shots.

- Vary the speed and look of his punches. Khan's main advantage is his speed. He's giving this up by fighting at the same pace CONSTANTLY. He needs to throw curve balls and mix up his attack in terms of how fast he's throwing his punches. What's happening now is his opponents are getting used to his speed after a while and figure him out because everything is being done at one pace. Like a fast bawler in cricket ALWAYS throwing the same fast balls in the same position of the pitch at the batsman. Eventually the batsman is ganna get used to that pace attack and start hitting him all over the pitch. That what's happening to Khan. He needs to vary the speed of his punches. Take something off them and then put something on. I guarentee he would get more stoppages because the suprise element would be there and he would also keep people off him.

There's a couple other things he can improve. Like learning how to avoid certain punches such as the uppercut, but the rest that people go on about is kind of academic at this stage because it's too chronic and deep-rooted. It will ALWAYS be in him.

Just been watching some vids and this is EXACTLY what Hunter has been working on with Khan, he should have saved some cash and just come on here for a quick read, impressive work Slip!

[Flea Man]

That right hand to the body is exactly the same as Luis Manuel Rodriguez's.

Remember the day I saw that. Only a brief glimpse but what it shows us is Holman stepping back and off to the side to avoid a blow. That's all we need to know

Class act.

Another thing to add to your summary of him is that he is one of the first people to teach a young Joe Louis a few bits and pieces!

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by satan80

Just been watching some vids and this is EXACTLY what Hunter has been working on with Khan, he should have saved some cash and just come on here for a quick read, impressive work Slip!

Thanks, mate.

Khan has just been living the live of a canary in a coal mine.

[Flea Man]

No, Khan is a canary inside a human body.

[JFT96]

Does anyone see similarities in the styles of Degale and Bute? I think they're are quite a few.

Obviously both are southpaws are primarily counter punchers. They each throw decent uppercuts which are one of their strongest weapons and although Bute's is a little sharper and more frequent, I think they both neglect the jab. You see more single punches than combinations from the pair of them and they ahve that similar crouched down style of stance, waiting for their opponent to commit. I also think a negative point for both is the ease with which they get backed up onto the ropes because it's a weak area for both.

Obviously, they're not carbon copies of each other but there is a likeness in their styles I feel. Bute is the better body puncher of the two and carries more power without doubt but I'd say James is slightly the better fighter when putting combinations together.