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Old 12-30-2007, 09:25 PM   #1
dpw417
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Default Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

Harry Greb, Ray Robinson,Marvin Hagler and Carlos Monzon...The best middleweight champions of all time...Each would problably be favored over the 'Michigan Assassin'...But borrowing a theme from another thread, how would each do in Stanley's era? We always match the old timers in a modern setting...We look at Ketchel and say he is so crude,so primitive...He could not possibly be a factor in today's arena...That may be true...
But Ketchel is extremely well suited for his time,and that is a certainty!
Ray Robinson once said after recapturing the middleweight title back from Basilio, "I feel like I've been beat up by twenty people." A reporter then stated, "Basilio said that he felt great, and he could go another fifteen."
"Well" Robinson said...."He can do them without me!"
Marvin Hagler during his first championship fight against Vito Antufermo, boxed very well inthe early rounds...building a big lead on the cards...But as the bout wore on, Hagler let up on the pace he had set...Allowing Antufermo the chance to rally...Hagler was thinking about the fifteen round distance...
Harry Greb, the rough, tumble fighter with the incredible stamina, and the whirlwind ferocity according to the reports...was a terror for the fifteen round limit...
Carlos Monzon the calculating, dominating middleweight champion who always was in command of his fights...dictating tempo and progression of each fight...Masterfully pacing himself for the fifteen round limit....
But what if each of them heard the bell for round....16...17...18...19...20...21...What a taxing, hellish ordeal it would have been...
For 25 rounds, how would each of the greats deal with a fighter who came at them for 25 rounds? Throwing his entire body weight behind each blow, clutching and grappling for position with the liberal rule set of the day...Stanley was a ferocious fighter with an incredible capacity to receive and give punishment...Nat Fleisher said Ketchel was the best...Could Stanley prove it in his own era?
Opinions please!
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Old 12-30-2007, 09:59 PM   #2
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

From boxing historians we are told of Stanley Ketchel being a murderous puncher. For a middleweight to drop the heavyweight champ Jack Johnson on the seat of his pants, that tells us something about the "Michigan Assassin" . With that kind of power he would stand a good chance with any of the all-time great middleweight champions.


Good post as always DPW!!
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Old 12-30-2007, 10:13 PM   #3
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

Yeah, very good stuff.
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Old 12-30-2007, 10:19 PM   #4
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

They'd all have finished him well prior to the 25 round distance being any kind of factor. Only possible acception being Greb, who'd have won the decision anyway, as that was his game.
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Old 12-30-2007, 10:53 PM   #5
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

The steady, ****-sure, spearing antics from the likes of Hagler and Monzon would cut through Ketchel's marauding ways and decorate his face at many intervals, yet nobody but an enraged Heavyweight champ ever managed to find the necessary gun powder to stop Stanley from degenerating the fight into a blood n' guts war, like Marciano later did, with his taxing manner of fighting.

Hell, even in Johnson's confused chapter with Ketchel he was coherent enough post-fight to label Ketchel as one of the hardest punchers he had faced, period.

To put even the greatest of the great at the 160 poundage in with Ketchel and his rule set is to ask a lot, if not too much of anyone. Stanley faces a great magnitude of different skill sets in men like Greb, Monzon and Hagler, but they would face an equally unknown quantity in the form of Ketchel's resistance and physical output.

Stanley could muster sledge hammer blows when out on his feet, which is the classic 'injured Tiger' trap for fighters on the kill. Ketchel outlasted Joe Thomas over 32 hard rounds, Nailed Johnson with a very messy face, through a battered face blasted Jack O' Brien and started to come on to Langford before their short bout ended.

The bottom line is it's hard to say whether the selectd men cold stop Ketchel before he got you on his terms in the later rounds. Even Greb, while far more 'era suited' had a style designed for quick 10-15 rounds blasts and may come up a crop against a steaming Ketchel.

Last edited by Amsterdam; 11-30-2006 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 12-31-2007, 08:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

Ketchel would probably beat them all up.
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Old 12-31-2007, 08:36 AM   #7
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

I rate Stanley among the best, he did not always come into the ring in top form but he held his own with the best, some people think Johnson is top 10 ATG heavy, well Stanley dropped him, I like him over Hagler and he could split a few over Greb, SSR a best out of 3 senario/toss up and he beats Monzon...too badly Stanley got wacked messin with the wife of another man, he would have done a lot more in boxing
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Old 12-31-2007, 03:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Ketchel would probably beat them all up.
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Old 12-31-2007, 05:30 PM   #9
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
You disagree ?
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Old 12-31-2007, 05:36 PM   #10
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
You disagree ?
I not only disagree, I think it's laughable to suggest, based on watching film of them all(aside from Greb).
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Old 12-31-2007, 06:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
I not only disagree, I think it's laughable to suggest, based on watching film of them all(aside from Greb).
Which Ketchel fights have you watched ?
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Old 12-31-2007, 06:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Which Ketchel fights have you watched ?
His fight with Johnson. And no, I'm not looking at the beating he takes from Johnson, I'm looking at his style and level of skill. Very crude fighter. Wild swings, just seems to be a fighter looking to land a big bomb.

I happen to be one who thinks the fighters from that era period were a bit primitive, that boxing didn't catch its more modern stride until around the 30's and 40's, with maybe a few acceptions prior(Leonard).
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Old 12-31-2007, 06:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
His fight with Johnson. And no, I'm not looking at the beating he takes from Johnson, I'm looking at his style and level of skill. Very crude fighter. Wild swings, just seems to be a fighter looking to land a big bomb.

I happen to be one who thinks the fighters from that era period were a bit primitive, that boxing didn't catch its more modern stride until around the 30's and 40's, with maybe a few acceptions prior(Leonard).
Ketchel was an unpolished type of fighter. I've seen him against Jack Johnson and against Billy Papke.
I think he looks okay against Johnson to start with, and throws jab towards the body and quite a few straight punches, but he becomes more wild and desperate as the fight wears on. He's fighting a much much bigger man, and he's getting hurt.

The thing is, we're matching later middleweights with Ketchel under the conditions IN HIS TIME.
25 rounds, clinching and wrestling allowed, smaller gloves, brutality allowed.

Put him in the ring with Ray Robinson and some time they are gonna close together, clinch (Robinson rested in the clinch at times in all his middleweight fights), and Ketchel's gonna get brutal.
An extremely strong, hard-hitting 160 pound roughouse fighter. 25 rounds, and the ref aint playing the same game they show on Gillette TV shows in the 50s, it gets far more untidy. If you are right and Robinson is so relatively skilfull that Ketchel cant catch Robinson, he might catch his glove, tangle him up, twist his arm, punch him in the kidneys, rabbit punch him, all allowed. 4 ounce gloves. I'm not sure Robinson ever needed to develop skills to offset all these things.

Ketchel was a great fighter. I wouldn't write off an entire era as primitive , but that's up to you. The guys who fought in the 1910s taught the guys from the 30s and 40s everything. Ketchel obviously had certain qualities that elevated him to the top of the game, he's no pushover.
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Old 12-31-2007, 07:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

Yeah, even in a more modern boxing scene we saw what a crude fighter in LaMotta was capable of against Robinson. Gave him absolute hell each and every time, and he doesn't have Ketchel's power.
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Old 12-31-2007, 07:44 PM   #15
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Default Re: Stanley Ketchel against the ATG's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Yeah, even in a more modern boxing scene we saw what a crude fighter in LaMotta was capable of against Robinson. Gave him absolute hell each and every time, and he doesn't have Ketchel's power.
LaMotta was a pressure fighter, Ketchell was just a big puncher from what I've seen. I don't think Ketchell lasts in the middle of the ring with these guys is my point, I don't believe he has the boxing skills.
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