Pure Wrestler vs Pure Boxer, MMA match, no cross training for either.

[HeGlassedMe]

Originally Posted by MetalMandible

Boxers stand in more of a straight line, MMA fighters break the rules and square up because you can't sprawl very well out of a Boxing stance.

I've seen MMA fighters use the "Boxing stand" in MMA.

[Stoo]

Your confusing the limits in the rules of modern college wrestling with actual techniques that are part of the sport. The origins of Pro Wrestling were travelling carnival acts but the match were not works, and the bouts were decided by pin or submission. This is the origins of both catch ad Greco/Roman styles you see in Collegiate wrestling today.

It's true that many of the holds were derived from Judo and the like, but as I said, it's entirely possible that Randy could have learned them without any cross training, especially an old chestnut like an arm triangle

[Will Cooling]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Your confusing the limits in the rules of modern college wrestling with actual techniques that are part of the sport. The origins of Pro Wrestling were travelling carnival acts but the match were not works, and the bouts were decided by pin or submission. This is the origins of both catch ad Greco/Roman styles you see in Collegiate wrestling today.

It's true that many of the holds were derived from Judo and the like, but as I said, it's entirely possible that Randy could have learned them without any cross training, especially an old chestnut like an arm triangle

Brock talked about Randy explaining the arm triangle to him as 'you know, like a neck crank'.

[Stoo]

Didnt Coleman neck crank Dan Severn?

EDIT Was looking for the fight and just found this, try and argue that Coleman was cross training The execution isnt as slick as Randy which may have been finessed with BJJ training, but the hold is there

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfyEQHJ19N0[/ame]

[Will Cooling]

Originally Posted by Stoo

Didnt Coleman neck crank Dan Severn?

Yep. And as I said Couture first ever victory was via choke.

[Stoo]

See the edit above

[MetalMandible]

The bottomline is, and it pains me to say it, that grappling trumps striking unless the striking is augmented by takedown defense.

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Icanmakeitrain

good point about Ruiz..although its easier to clinch when you throw punching coming in..something Ruiz could do...a pure wrestler who has done no striking will SUCK at punching..so its a bit harder then that.

Not really, because Ruiz couldn't shoot for the legs. If a guys is going to be standing in a boxing stance with one foot way forward and angled and you don't need to worry about knees or kicks, you don't have to work your way into a clinch like Ruiz did. Really, go to the gym and try it or get your buddies in the back yard to try it out. You'll see what I mean and get a better appreciation for both sports.

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by MetalMandible

The bottomline is, and it pains me to say it, that grappling trumps striking unless the striking is augmented by takedown defense.

I'm still unconvinced it's a 9/10 deal with a mobile and fundamentally sound boxer. There aren't enough prime for prime match-ups to make a "bottom line".

[Ai-edy2007]

NICK DIAZ all day.

[Ubersteve]

If it's a top level college guy we are talking about then watch the way Brock comes out in his first fight with Mir and imagine a boxer trying to survive that without any sub knowledge.

[Axe]

Originally Posted by Ubersteve

If it's a top level college guy we are talking about then watch the way Brock comes out in his first fight with Mir and imagine a boxer trying to survive that without any sub knowledge.

Does the boxer have an "extra" 85 lbs of anabolic substances flowing through their veins?

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by Axe

Does the boxer have an "extra" 85 lbs of anabolic substances flowing through their veins?

James Toney has failed more drugs tests than Lesnar

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Bogotazo

I'm still unconvinced it's a 9/10 deal with a mobile and fundamentally sound boxer. There aren't enough prime for prime match-ups to make a "bottom line".

"Fundamentally sound" doesn't mean anything here because they're different sports. What works in a boxing ring against another boxer is strong fundamentals (that's why they're the fundamentals) but has nothing to say about how it works in a mma match or street fight or kickboxing match etc. As for "mobile", if we're assuming same size for each guy, go ahead and watch the 125 lb class and see if they're not as quick as featherweights. Read my previous post. Wrestling moves are just much more high percentage than boxing moves because of what you're trying to do with what. I'm much better boxer than I am a grappler so I wish this wasn't the case, but it is. It just is. Don't take my word for it, go try it. You'll see.

[Bogotazo]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

"Fundamentally sound" doesn't mean anything here because they're different sports. What works in a boxing ring against another boxer is strong fundamentals (that's why they're the fundamentals) but has nothing to say about how it works in a mma match or street fight or kickboxing match etc. As for "mobile", if we're assuming same size for each guy, go ahead and watch the 125 lb class and see if they're not as quick as featherweights. Read my previous post. Wrestling moves are just much more high percentage than boxing moves because of what you're trying to do with what. I'm much better boxer than I am a grappler so I wish this wasn't the case, but it is. It just is. Don't take my word for it, go try it. You'll see.

I think I will try it. I know a tall boxer that has had a lot of success defending takedowns without any formal training in his boxing/mma gym, and have heard similar things from boxers in other gyms. Can't hurt to try. It can't be easy, I just think 9/10 is too far.