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View Poll Results: Which fighter should have had a re-match with Johnson while Johnson was champ?
GunBoat Smith 8 80.00%
Jack O'brien 5 50.00%
Jim Battling Johnson 3 30.00%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-03-2012, 06:36 AM   #1
Mendoza
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Default Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion deserve

Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion deserved a re-match the most? For the purpose of the thread, assume the match MUST happen quickly before the below fighters lost again, or became past their primes.



1 ) Gunboat Smith who floored Johnson in a 4 round exhibition match, that was halted by Johnson manager when the NY Times says Johnson got up dazed. Smith also hold a win over Langford and defeated both Willard and Moran before Johnson gave Willard and Moran A title shot?



2 ) Jack O'Brien. O'Brien, who was much smaller and lighter according to some press reports was the better in a 6 round match.



3 ) Jim Battling Johnson. Listed as a 10 round Draw in box rec ( not going there in this thread ) fight reports suggest Jim Battling was the better.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion deserved a re-match the most? For the purpose of the thread, assume the match MUST happen quickly before the below fighters lost again, or became past their primes.



1 ) Gunboat Smith who floored Johnson in a 4 round exhibition match, that was halted by Johnson manager when the NY Times says Johnson got up dazed. Smith also hold a win over Langford and defeated both Willard and Moran before Johnson gave Willard and Moran A title shot?



2 ) Jack O'Brien. O'Brien, who was much smaller and lighter according to some press reports was the better in a 6 round match.



3 ) Jim Battling Johnson. Listed as a 10 round Draw in box rec ( not going there in this thread ) fight reports suggest Jim Battling was the better.
1. Smith did not floor Johnson according to Smith himself, he put him halfway through the ropes .
2. I posted two ringside reports of the O Brien/ Johnson fight this week both gave the fight to Johnson one was a Philly paper which was O Brien's home town ,and where the fight took place.


3.Several PRIMARY SOURCES have been posted re the Johnson/Johnson fight ,all gave the fight to the Champion.

NO PRIMARY SOURCES HAVE EVER BEEN POSTED ON THIS FORUM THAT CONTRADICT THIS

4. NO PRIMARY SOURCES HAVE EVER BEEN POSTED THAT DEMONSTRATE THERE WAS ANY DEMAND FOR REMATCHES FOR O BRIEN OR JIM JOHNSON.


5. Three months after drawing with Johnson, Battling Jim lost his next fight [to Sam Langford]. He then went another 8 fights without a win.

6. Less than a month after the no decision 6 rounder with Johnson, O Brien was kod in 3 rds by Stanley Ketchel.
After that he struggled to hold off a strong finishing Jim Flynn in a 6 rounder ,then dropped 2 decisions to Al Kaufman.

Both Flynn and Kaufman were easy victims for Johnson. Flynn was kod twice.

Ketchel was kod for several minutes by Johnson , a couple of months after Stanley had kod O Brien.

Kaufman , just prior to beating O Brien twice , challenged Johnson he did not win a round ,and ringside reports state Johnson could have ended the fight at any time he chose.

In the light of their subsequent results ,immediately after challenging Johnson , what demand do you assume there was for rematches?
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:07 AM   #3
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

He never fought smith. Sparring sessions are not recordable fights.

The best rematch would have been jim johnson. He was a legitimate contender and it was over a respectable ten round limit.

The truth is, imo, after pasting his great rival in jeffries, johnson had no motivating left, especially when compounded with his status as a fugitive.

The guy achieved everything he could between 05 and 11.

However a victory over jim johnson would look good. Even if it was again over a ten round limit.
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Old 03-03-2012, 07:40 AM   #4
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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He never fought smith. Sparring sessions are not recordable fights.

The best rematch would have been jim johnson. He was a legitimate contender and it was over a respectable ten round limit.

The truth is, imo, after pasting his great rival in jeffries, johnson had no motivating left, especially when compounded with his status as a fugitive.

The guy achieved everything he could between 05 and 11.

However a victory over jim johnson would look good. Even if it was again over a ten round limit.
I think Jim Johnson deserved a re-match for sure, and your right if Jack gave him one and scored a win it would help take light off a dubious result.


Smith could be viewed as the #1 contender for a while, certainly beat top opposition, and proved he could hurt Johnson when he landed.


Hard to say who deserved a title shot more. The man who many felt one but had to settle for a draw, or the guy who was more qualified but never got the title match opportunity.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:24 AM   #5
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

Well the thread's about rematches. So of the two he actually fought, johnson was most deserving imo.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:49 AM   #6
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

i don't think Jack O'Brien got a title shot.

Not a single primary source I have ever seen names it as such.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:11 AM   #7
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
i don't think Jack O'Brien got a title shot.

Not a single primary source I have ever seen names it as such.
Well there we have it!

The winner of the thread is jim johnson by default!
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Old 03-03-2012, 10:04 AM   #8
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
1. Smith did not floor Johnson according to Smith himself, he put him halfway through the ropes .
2. I posted two ringside reports of the O Brien/ Johnson fight this week both gave the fight to Johnson one was a Philly paper which was O Brien's home town ,and where the fight took place.


3.Several PRIMARY SOURCES have been posted re the Johnson/Johnson fight ,all gave the fight to the Champion.

NO PRIMARY SOURCES HAVE EVER BEEN POSTED ON THIS FORUM THAT CONTRADICT THIS

4. NO PRIMARY SOURCES HAVE EVER BEEN POSTED THAT DEMONSTRATE THERE WAS ANY DEMAND FOR REMATCHES FOR O BRIEN OR JIM JOHNSON.


5. Three months after drawing with Johnson, Battling Jim lost his next fight [to Sam Langford]. He then went another 8 fights without a win.

6. Less than a month after the no decision 6 rounder with Johnson, O Brien was kod in 3 rds by Stanley Ketchel.
After that he struggled to hold off a strong finishing Jim Flynn in a 6 rounder ,then dropped 2 decisions to Al Kaufman.

Both Flynn and Kaufman were easy victims for Johnson. Flynn was kod twice.

Ketchel was kod for several minutes by Johnson , a couple of months after Stanley had kod O Brien.

Kaufman , just prior to beating O Brien twice , challenged Johnson he did not win a round ,and ringside reports state Johnson could have ended the fight at any time he chose.

In the light of their subsequent results ,immediately after challenging Johnson , what demand do you assume there was for rematches?
so i'm REAL new to the historical, newspaper research that you guys are proficient in but i did run across this headline (downloading full article now)

JACK JOHNSON CLOSE TO DEFEAT; Negro Champion Barely Saved in Paris from a Knockout by "Battling" Jim Johnson. HIS LEFT ARM BROKEN Hissed and Jeered as His Opponent, Three Shades Blacker, Batters Him ;- Decision, a Draw.

It was from the NY times, December 20th

Valid source? Second hand?
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:57 AM   #9
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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Originally Posted by Nightcrawler View Post
so i'm REAL new to the historical, newspaper research that you guys are proficient in but i did run across this headline (downloading full article now)

JACK JOHNSON CLOSE TO DEFEAT; Negro Champion Barely Saved in Paris from a Knockout by "Battling" Jim Johnson. HIS LEFT ARM BROKEN Hissed and Jeered as His Opponent, Three Shades Blacker, Batters Him ;- Decision, a Draw.

It was from the NY times, December 20th

Valid source? Second hand?
The fight was held in France . Ringside reports of the fight have been posted on this forum in the past.
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:06 PM   #10
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
The fight was held in France . Ringside reports of the fight have been posted on this forum in the past.
from my reading of the report, it was ringside and wired to new york. certainly not definitive in accuracy but quite clear in opinion that jack johnson was battered
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Well the thread's about rematches. So of the two he actually fought, johnson was most deserving imo.
Let us assume ,for the sake of argument you are correct. Jack Johnson was 35 years old when he fought Battling Jim, he had taken part in 2 fights in 4, and a half years, all the while living it up, and abusing his body. He still managed a draw with Battling Jim ,although he had broken a bone in his arm early in the contest. Let us assume Johnson is willing to give Battling Jim a rematch ,given that the first fight was a stinker due to Johnson's injury and lack of condition, given that the crowd booed both men lustily the Champion because he did not come up to expectations ,and the challenger ,because he was unable to take advantage of it. Where was the demand for such a rematch?
Let us further assume that Johnson quite naturally , needs time for his broken arm to heal , as Battling Jim fought his next fight inside three months later , lost it, and the two after that ,[in fact he went eight contests without posting a win.]
This gives

1.A promoter how long to whip up any interest for a rematch?

2. A healed Johnson how long to train for such a rematch?

It was never a feasible option was it?
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Old 03-03-2012, 12:58 PM   #12
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
He never fought smith. Sparring sessions are not recordable fights.

The best rematch would have been jim johnson. He was a legitimate contender and it was over a respectable ten round limit.

The truth is, imo, after pasting his great rival in jeffries, johnson had no motivating left, especially when compounded with his status as a fugitive.

The guy achieved everything he could between 05 and 11.

However a victory over jim johnson would look good. Even if it was again over a ten round limit.
You are applying logic, and intelligence to a question that has been posed by a MORON.
eg. Whilst training for his title defence against Don ****ell , Rocky Marciano was dropped by sparmate Toxie Hall ,the sparring session was stopped. According to Mendoza's convoluted logic, Hall should have been given a title shot!
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
You are applying logic, and intelligence to a question that has been posed by a MORON.
eg. Whilst training for his title defence against Don ****ell , Rocky Marciano was dropped by sparmate Toxie Hall ,the sparring session was stopped. According to Mendoza's convoluted logic, Hall should have been given a title shot!
Oh man, it's good to have you and Mendoza back. We missed you! (This makes me want to create a fake Mendoza account just for the purpose of provoking more insults from you.)
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:28 PM   #14
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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from my reading of the report, it was ringside and wired to new york. certainly not definitive in accuracy but quite clear in opinion that jack johnson was battered
Other reports that have been posted, state the champion was coming on strong at the end ,if you can be bothered ,you should be able to trawl back and find them.Either way it was a stinker affair and I cannot see there would have been any demand for a rematch .
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Old 03-03-2012, 01:30 PM   #15
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Default Re: Which of the following fighters who fought Johnson while Johnson was champion des

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Other reports that have been posted, state the champion was coming on strong at the end ,if you can be bothered ,you should be able to trawl back and find them.Either way it was a stinker affair and I cannot see there would have been any demand for a rematch .
i'm very interested in this type of research and historical accuracy as of late so i just might. thanks mcvey
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