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Old 03-10-2012, 05:29 PM   #31
burt bienstock
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

To call a Jack Dempsey a "racist" [god I hate that term], because he didn't hook up with a black Harry Wills, even though he fought a tough black fighter John Lester Johnson, befriended Johnson with financial aid years later, had several TOUGH sparring partners
throughout his career, is utterly bogus...It is akin to calling a man who drinks occasionally an alcoholic...Todays haters of Dempsey who spout this garbage ,whilst idolizing an Ali, who was a member of a hate group, spouted racial and cruel words about whites ,who never hurt him, had Irish blood in himself, [Cassius Clay], called a decent human being Joe Frazier, an Uncle Tom, amongst other vile names, flaunted cruelly over his victims etc. But to the Dempsey haters, all this is overlooked by them
because these posters are reverse racists, pandering to selective individuals..
I abhor true racism, as I saw this practice in action when I was a youngster... But I
feel that people that target ONLY one set of skin is not sincere...
P.S. give me a Dempsey character over an Ali character anytime...And that goes double for Joe Louis and Joe Frazier...They were a credit to one race, the human race...
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Old 03-10-2012, 05:44 PM   #32
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

Yeah, Bert just schooled all the haters.
I've learned so much from reading his posts alone.
Thank you sir!
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Old 03-11-2012, 02:52 PM   #33
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Of course Jeffries was racist. But racism was normal for his time. But it's not "wrong" to call a racists a racist just because he was a racist a long time ago. All the slave owners were racists of the worst kind, you don't excuse them because it was accepted in his culture that blacks were de-humanised, you just try and understand that this was the case.
tbh, and i mean this utterly sincerely, if I had a time machine then I would take a flamethrower (or a tank) to slaveowners of the past and burn them all to death.

They knew deep down they were doing wrong, they just knew they could get away with it.

Dempsey was a different man entirely, only a passive racist at worst, hes not inherently hateful, he just accepted the status quo of the time outside his own actions.
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Old 03-11-2012, 03:22 PM   #34
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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tbh, and i mean this utterly sincerely, if I had a time machine then I would take a flamethrower (or a tank) to slaveowners of the past and burn them all to death.

They knew deep down they were doing wrong, they just knew they could get away with it.

Dempsey was a different man entirely, only a passive racist at worst, hes not inherently hateful, he just accepted the status quo of the time outside his own actions.
Do you mean this to include white slave owners only, or all slave owners throughout history, regardless of race? Would you take the flamethrower out on all the accesories to slavery like the Arabs and the tribal chiefs in Africa who collaborated as well? it wasn't just a group of white guys who got all those blacks out of Africa to be used as slaves. Just asking.
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Old 03-11-2012, 03:41 PM   #35
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

The People's Revolutionary Record Book will erase the names of Jeffries, Willard and Dempsey from history.
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Old 03-11-2012, 04:28 PM   #36
Ren
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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Do you mean this to include white slave owners only, or all slave owners throughout history, regardless of race? Would you take the flamethrower out on all the accesories to slavery like the Arabs and the tribal chiefs in Africa who collaborated as well? it wasn't just a group of white guys who got all those blacks out of Africa to be used as slaves. Just asking.
i'd take a flamethrower to them all yeah, including George Washington and the rest of those so called presidents who were actual war criminals. free Kunte Kinte. period. Watch them burn.

I ctually abhor the word 'slaveowner' since its a falsity. They werent slaveowners, they were kidnappers, murderers, false imprisoners and war criminals. And they knew it. And this is what we should be taught about Washington, he was the epitome of evil, a maxi-Hitler. History should be accurately portrayed in schools.

hmm Might need some backup, there was a lot of them lol.
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:20 PM   #37
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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i'd take a flamethrower to them all yeah, including George Washington and the rest of those so called presidents who were actual war criminals. free Kunte Kinte. period. Watch them burn.

I ctually abhor the word 'slaveowner' since its a falsity. They werent slaveowners, they were kidnappers, murderers, false imprisoners and war criminals. And they knew it. And this is what we should be taught about Washington, he was the epitome of evil, a maxi-Hitler. History should be accurately portrayed in schools.

hmm Might need some backup, there was a lot of them lol.
As grandma said, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Someone's gotta win and someone's gotta lose.
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:31 PM   #38
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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i'd take a flamethrower to them all yeah, including George Washington and the rest of those so called presidents who were actual war criminals. free Kunte Kinte. period. Watch them burn.

I ctually abhor the word 'slaveowner' since its a falsity. They werent slaveowners, they were kidnappers, murderers, false imprisoners and war criminals. And they knew it. And this is what we should be taught about Washington, he was the epitome of evil, a maxi-Hitler. History should be accurately portrayed in schools.

hmm Might need some backup, there was a lot of them lol.
You misguided white hater. Why do you post on the internet that was invented and developed by "white" people ? You and your ilk are hypocrates, espousing hate mongering though you except all the goodies of the caucasian race as penicillin, Statins,vaccines, developed by white people as myself who fought for the likes of you. I and the vast majority abhor the practices of slavery, that was ended in 1865, after the terrible civil war in which America lost the lives of HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of young
boys to end this evil practice. I fought racism before you were a gleam in your dad's eye. But I realize that the overwhelming majority of everyone I know are decent people who try to live by the golden rule.. You sir get your rocks off by your damn agenda, and I thought this darn forum was about boxing, not venting an agenda...I'm on this forum 2 years and I love my country for I believe in what Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others". Many of my pals died for this country ,and you are trying to tear down the foundations with your
freakin propoganda...Now back to the subject at hand, BOXING...
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:07 AM   #39
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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Yeah ..... apart from all those who thought it was right.
Thereīs a difference there. The nazis grew up in a society where killing someone for their race was wrong. Thus they knew from early childhood on that it was wrong to kill the Jews. Thatīs why they tried to hide it, thatīs why there is not an order for the holocaust and some high-ranking nazis even mentioned it in private letters. That they also thought it was necessary and believed it to be the right thing to do is something different. Just proves how sick some of them are and what kind of sheep and cowards the rest was.

That the nazis knew what crime they commited and that they did it anyway (and the way how they did it) sets the holocaust apart from any genozide that came before and from most since.

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I got what youīre saying.....definitely......but I think that the neonazis from today also "know" they are "right"...works that way in their minds.....I just read one day some posts in that forum Stormfront, someone posted in the Lounge, and they pretty much talk like if what they are doing is simply the most normal and right thing in the world :......and many of them were born and raised in families with that type of mentality....
Well.....thatīs my view anyway.....and works both ways, for white racists and black racists....
True. But thatīs not the point. The point is that they lived in a time where the vast majority of their civilisation know it to be wrong. They knew/know it to be wrong to kill people. That they want to do it nevertheless just shows how sick they are.
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:35 AM   #40
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

aside from boxing. ren and seamus should watch the bbc doc. lost kingdoms of africa, episode 1, about the africans who enslaved and then sold to white slave traders. or look into the Phrophet Muhammed (pbuh) who thought that slavery was okay as long as a muslim didn't sell his muslim slaves to a non muslim. or the barbary pirates who took slaves from the south of britain to north africa. or consider that almost all white peoples history was spent as serfs, essentially a slave in all but name.
I am with Burt now, the stuff being talked about has nothing to do with boxing and is often just innacurate nonsense.(although it should be acknowledged that ali has renounced his racist views a long time back now)
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:48 AM   #41
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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aside from boxing. ren and seamus should watch the bbc doc. lost kingdoms of africa, episode 1, about the africans who enslaved and then sold to white slave traders. or look into the Phrophet Muhammed (pbuh) who thought that slavery was okay as long as a muslim didn't sell his muslim slaves to a non muslim. or the barbary pirates who took slaves from the south of britain to north africa. or consider that almost all white peoples history was spent as serfs, essentially a slave in all but name.
I am with Burt now, the stuff being talked about has nothing to do with boxing and is often just innacurate nonsense.(although it should be acknowledged that ali has renounced his racist views a long time back now)
Just because Jeffries called black people n*****s, and "smokes ", refused to defend his title against one, and castigated Tommy Burns for selling his title to a n****r , referred to Johnson, variously as that big dinge/n****r , and came out of retirement to regain the honour of the White Race, he gets called a racist.
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Old 03-12-2012, 05:58 AM   #42
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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Nah, there is a difference. Everybody during the holocaust knew what they were doing was wrong. Evidence, they tried to hide it, there are about no documents, no orders or anything. On the other hand the people in the 19th century and earlier in most parts of the US "knew" whites were superior to blacks. Thereīs quite a difference between those two. The nazis knew they were doing wrong, the racists back then didnīt - which doesnīt make their behaviour any better though.
Well did they though? Or were they brainwashed with propaganda into believing Jews were not just sub-humans but the architects for WW1 and the depression?

Myths about the the Jews pre-date the Nazi's, in the the late 1800s there were German cartoons showing Jews kidnapping and eating German children. There was a general mistrust of Jews in general society

Generally the anti-semites and racists were ignorant and uneducated on the matter
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Old 03-12-2012, 06:31 AM   #43
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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Well did they though? Or were they brainwashed with propaganda into believing Jews were not just sub-humans but the architects for WW1 and the depression?

Myths about the the Jews pre-date the Nazi's, in the the late 1800s there were German cartoons showing Jews kidnapping and eating German children. There was a general mistrust of Jews in general society

Generally the anti-semites and racists were ignorant and uneducated on the matter
All true but nevertheless they grew up in a society which teached that killing humans - no matter which "race", religion or anything - was wrong. They knew that and committed their crime anyway because they believed it still to be the right thing to do - due to brainwashing, propaganda as you said. Jews were always suspicious in Europe (and partly in the US too if you look how many Americans supported the NSDAP in the beginning) due to them beeing different of the majority. People donīt like different (i know thatīs very general but a look in any history book should prove that point).

The holocaust was the first and biggest planned genozide where the people knew they were doing wrong. Since then there a few others but none of it on the same scale. Thatīs what made it THAT bad and unique.

Different with the slaveowners or racists who grew up getting teached that blacks are inferior to whites. They didnīt know better. And I do not want to excuse them. Racism is always wrong so much is clear. But itīs more understandable for people back then than for people today. And, honestly, IMO when comparing the racists in the US of the past with the nazis you are kind of diminishing the vastness of the crime the nazis committed.
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Old 03-12-2012, 07:51 AM   #44
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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Just because Jeffries called black people n*****s, and "smokes ", refused to defend his title against one, and castigated Tommy Burns for selling his title to a n****r , referred to Johnson, variously as that big dinge/n****r , and came out of retirement to regain the honour of the White Race, he gets called a racist.
i never said he wasn't, just that it had 0 to do with boxing, and i was replying to posts that weren't about boxing either.
The history of american boxing is full of race issues, but the fighters involved skills have little to do with race, and most top black boxers who were held back do recieve their historical dues from people here.
I will also say that self made people are usually free from a lot of the causes of racism in an individual, rich = snobby and ignorant, comfortable middle class = keep others off my stuff, poor = blame others for problems. self made = much more aware that individuals are the same because less reliant on their social group for all their interactions and opinions.

on the holocaust, remember the difference between nazi party and ss, and conscripted troops/civilians
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:56 AM   #45
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Default Re: all this b...shit about jeffries and dempsey being racist

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Thereīs a difference there. The nazis grew up in a society where killing someone for their race was wrong. Thus they knew from early childhood on that it was wrong to kill the Jews. Thatīs why they tried to hide it, thatīs why there is not an order for the holocaust and some high-ranking nazis even mentioned it in private letters. That they also thought it was necessary and believed it to be the right thing to do is something different. Just proves how sick some of them are and what kind of sheep and cowards the rest was.

That the nazis knew what crime they commited and that they did it anyway (and the way how they did it) sets the holocaust apart from any genozide that came before and from most since.

I disagree with a lot of your assertions.

Firstly, the cruel African slave trade was known to be 'wrong'/immoral/inhuman or at least highly morally dubious by a great many white Americans, including the slave owners themselves.
Most intelligent people could probably see it was a bit dodgy if they knew anything about it.
Since the 1500s and 1600s there were religious groups calling for it to be ended. Christian culture had long since associated slavery with pagan Roman empire.
But slavery in America persisted because it was PROFITABLE.
Biological 'scientific', as well as religious, justifications were later made, but that was in the face of protests and common sense that deemed it wrong.

Secondly, the German generation who were Nazis were NOT brought up to think killing all human beings for their race was wrong. They grew up in an age of imperialism, an age of eugenics, an age where war and harshness and ruthlessness were glorified as 'noble' qualities. They grew up where the idea 'survival of the fittest' and 'the strong have a natural right to kill the weak', 'the strong nations must conquer or destroy the weak nations and races' were at the forefront of a lot of intellectual and modern thinking.
Plus, the myth of the 'Jewish problem' was even more deeply imbedded than a myth of blacks being inferior.


Of course the German Nazis knew the holocaust was a 'crime'. And they knew many Germans would have thought it wrong too. That's the same with most genocides and massacres. They wanted rid of the Jews. They didn't expect to sell it to the world as 'a good thing' all at once. They were working on a tight schedule. And they had a lot on their plate.

They tried to hide it because they could.

That's my take anyway.
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