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View Poll Results: 1973 Bugner VS 1996 Tyson - 12 Rounder
Bugner KO or TKO 0 0%
Bugner decision 3 12.50%
Tyson KO or TKO 12 50.00%
Tyson decision 9 37.50%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-13-2012, 07:04 AM   #16
The Kurgan
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

Bugner takes Tyson the distance and has a few isolated moments, like Ruddock in 1991. Tyson looks impressive early on, but fades as the fight goes on.

I think that if a boxer can take a 1973 Frazier the distance, then he can take a 1996 Tyson the distance. However, Bugner wouldn't take the risks required to win and wouldn't win even if he did.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:45 AM   #17
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
Bugner takes Tyson the distance and has a few isolated moments, like Ruddock in 1991. Tyson looks impressive early on, but fades as the fight goes on.

I think that if a boxer can take a 1973 Frazier the distance, then he can take a 1996 Tyson the distance. However, Bugner wouldn't take the risks required to win and wouldn't win even if he did.
Excellent analysis. You know your stuff.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:49 AM   #18
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Default Re: 1973 Joe Bugner VS 1996 Mike Tyson

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Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
He certainly could take a punch. Getting off the canvas after taking that left hook from Frazier and finishing strongly is proof enough.
Yes, that's always been the consensus (and correct) view about Bugner's durability. Nobody ever questioned it.

The real knock on Bugner -- and I'm sure you're aware of this -- was his lack of genuine KO power, his apparent discomfort at fighting offensively, and his constant tendency to retreat into a defensive shell when pressured. He was strictly a stand-up orthodox boxer, and had minimal infighting skill.

Overall, though, I think Bugner was a legit '70s contender, even in spite of his flaws. He was tough as nails, had a very nice jab, and was a decent distance boxer.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:54 AM   #19
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
Bugner takes Tyson the distance and has a few isolated moments, like Ruddock in 1991. Tyson looks impressive early on, but fades as the fight goes on.

I think that if a boxer can take a 1973 Frazier the distance, then he can take a 1996 Tyson the distance. However, Bugner wouldn't take the risks required to win and wouldn't win even if he did.
Joe Bugner was very featherfisted so how does he get isolated moments?

By leaning or pushing on Tyson really hard with all his soft 219lbs or something?

As a huge puncher Donovan Ruddock hit like 10 tonne truck, watch his barbaric brutal KO's of Michael Dokes and Bonecrusher Smith.

Ruddock's islotated moments were from bounching huge KO-punches clean off Tyson's granite chin.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:07 AM   #20
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

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Originally Posted by Tin Man Waldo View Post
Joe Bugner was very featherfisted so how does he get isolated moments?
Watch the Frazier fight for insight here. Bugner wouldn't have rocked Tyson -- as Ruddock did -- but he would have occasionally put his punches together and had some impressive moments. Nothing sustainable, though.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:16 AM   #21
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
Bugner takes Tyson the distance and has a few isolated moments, like Ruddock in 1991. Tyson looks impressive early on, but fades as the fight goes on.

I think that if a boxer can take a 1973 Frazier the distance, then he can take a 1996 Tyson the distance. However, Bugner wouldn't take the risks required to win and wouldn't win even if he did.
Nice summing up.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:27 AM   #22
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Default Re: 1973 Joe Bugner VS 1996 Mike Tyson

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Originally Posted by kenmore View Post
Yes, that's always been the consensus (and correct) view about Bugner's durability. Nobody ever questioned it.

The real knock on Bugner -- and I'm sure you're aware of this -- was his lack of genuine KO power, his apparent discomfort at fighting offensively, and his constant tendency to retreat into a defensive shell when pressured. He was strictly a stand-up orthodox boxer, and had minimal infighting skill.

Overall, though, I think Bugner was a legit '70s contender, even in spite of his flaws. He was tough as nails, had a very nice jab, and was a decent distance boxer.
I concur with your assessment of Joe. He had the ability to have progressed further than he actually did. Outside of the big 4 of Ali,Frazier,Foreman and Norton,he would have stood a 50/50 shot at anyone else,if he'd fought up to his true ability.

I've often questioned his manager,Andy Smith's strategy with Bugner. After proving streets ahead of anyone else in Britain and Europe,he was put in with Ali and Frazier to give him experience. Fair enough. Joe performed quite well against both men. He should then have been matched with the likes of Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle (four years earlier than in reality) with realistic chances of success. Instead,Smith put him back in with mediocre opposition. Consequently,when he was rematched with Muhammad Ali for the title,he'd gained no worthwhile experience in the interim. He'd never have beaten Muhammad in '75,but with more meaningful fights behind him,he could have had a closer fight of it than he did.

Last edited by Stevie G; 03-14-2012 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:17 AM   #23
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Default Re: 1973 Joe Bugner VS 1996 Mike Tyson

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Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
I concur with your assessment of Joe. He had the ability to have progressed further than he actually did. Outside of the big 4 of Ali,Frazier,Foreman and Norton,he would have stood a 50/50 shot at anyone else,if he'd fought up to his true ability.

I've often questioned his manager,Andy Smith's strategy with Bugner. After proving streets ahead of anyone else in Britain and Europe,he was put in with Ali and Frazier to give him experience. Fair enough. Joe performed quite well against both men. He should then have been matched with the likes of Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle (four years earlier than in reality) with realistic chances of success. Instead,Smith put him back in with mediocre opposition. Consequently,when he was rematched with Muhammad Ali for the title,he'd gained no worthwhile experience in the interim. He'd never have beaten Muhammad in '75,but with more meaningful fights behind him,he could have mad a closer fight of it than he did.
I get a lot of my Bugner info from Ron Olver's columns in the old Ring Magazine, and from the old London Times articles. Your post touches upon a lot of stuff I read.

After the Frazier fight, Olver said that based on that one peformance, Bugner was better than anyone outside of the "Big Four." Olver may have been correct, but Bugner's inconsistency made his better days the exception, rather than the rule.

I remember reading that Lyle and Bonavena were both considered as opponents on the night that Bugner fought Bepi Ros (1974), who was a mediocre club fighter. In summing up the fight, Olver stated that although Bugner beat Ros easily, he looked so inefficient and sloppy that he would probably have lost to Lyle and Bonavena on that same night.

I think Bugner's performance level against Ros was typical of his efforts against overmatched Euro foes during that period. So...who knows: maybe Andy Green had good reasons for being careful in matching Bugner.

As for the 1977 Lyle fight, I have always thought it a shame that Bugner took the match after such a long period of inactivity. It would have been interesting to see how much better Bugner could have done that night (and that fight was close, in spite of Bugner being off).

A final interesting note on Bugner-Lyle is that Lyle took control of the fight only in the final 3 rounds, when Bugner suffered a broken eardrum. Broken eardrums have a shattering effect on a fighter's balance. Until then -- over the fist 9 rounds -- Bugner appeared to be headed toward another close, sloppy, but clear points win.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:51 AM   #24
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Default Re: 1973 Joe Bugner VS 1996 Mike Tyson

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenmore View Post
I get a lot of my Bugner info from Ron Olver's columns in the old Ring Magazine, and from the old London Times articles. Your post touches upon a lot of stuff I read.

After the Frazier fight, Olver said that based on that one peformance, Bugner was better than anyone outside of the "Big Four." Olver may have been correct, but Bugner's inconsistency made his better days the exception, rather than the rule.

I remember reading that Lyle and Bonavena were both considered as opponents on the night that Bugner fought Bepi Ros (1974), who was a mediocre club fighter. In summing up the fight, Olver stated that although Bugner beat Ros easily, he looked so inefficient and sloppy that he would probably have lost to Lyle and Bonavena on that same night.

I think Bugner's performance level against Ros was typical of his efforts against overmatched Euro foes during that period. So...who knows: maybe Andy Green had good reasons for being careful in matching Bugner.

As for the 1977 Lyle fight, I have always thought it a shame that Bugner took the match after such a long period of inactivity. It would have been interesting to see how much better Bugner could have done that night (and that fight was close, in spite of Bugner being off).

A final interesting note on Bugner-Lyle is that Lyle took control of the fight only in the final 3 rounds, when Bugner suffered a broken eardrum. Broken eardrums have a shattering effect on a fighter's balance. Until then -- over the fist 9 rounds -- Bugner appeared to be headed toward another close, sloppy, but clear points win.
I used to love reading Ron Olver's columns. Yes the Lyle-Bugner fight was a lot closer than many remember.
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Old 03-14-2012, 07:53 AM   #25
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

On Tinkerbell VS BugBear - I do reckon it would be a mix between Tinkerbell VS "Boneclincher" Smith of 1987 And "Beefcake" Bruno 1 of 1989.
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Old 03-14-2012, 11:31 AM   #26
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

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Originally Posted by Foreman Hook View Post
On Tinkerbell VS BugBear - I do reckon it would be a mix between Tinkerbell VS "Boneclincher" Smith of 1987 And "Beefcake" Bruno 1 of 1989.
What did Bruno and Bugner have in common ?
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Old 03-14-2012, 12:15 PM   #27
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

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What did Bruno and Bugner have in common ?
They were both born on Earth.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:54 PM   #28
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

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Originally Posted by Tin Man Waldo View Post
Joe Bugner was very featherfisted so how does he get isolated moments?
Featherfisted? No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Man Waldo
As a huge puncher Donovan Ruddock hit like 10 tonne truck, watch his barbaric brutal KO's of Michael Dokes and Bonecrusher Smith.

Ruddock's islotated moments were from bounching huge KO-punches clean off Tyson's granite chin.
Bugner's moments would come from being a big skilled boxer and landing punches on a decline Tyson.
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Old 03-15-2012, 08:14 AM   #29
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan View Post
Featherfisted? No.



Bugner's moments would come from being a big skilled boxer and landing punches on a decline Tyson.
I've often thought that a bout between a 1973-77 Bugner and the Bruno of 1986-89 would have been a good one. I'd tip Bugner,if Joe was in one of his 'up for it' moods.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:28 AM   #30
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Default Re: 1973 Joe "BugBear" Bugner VS 1996 Mike "Tinkerbell" Tyson

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Originally Posted by Stevie G View Post
I've often thought that a bout between a 1973-77 Bugner and the Bruno of 1986-89 would have been a good one. I'd tip Bugner,if Joe was in one of his 'up for it' moods.
I totally agree with you that this would be a very competitive fight. I also agree that you've accurately picked each guy's prime years. A lot of fans here don't realize the "best" Bugner fought between 1973 and 1977...his performances before and after that window of activity should be discounted.

As for prime Bugner vs prime Bruno, I tentatively lean toward Bruno, if only because he was the more aggressive fighter. Bugner tended to retreat into his defensive a little too much.

Regardless of who won, I believe it would go the distances.
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