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Old 03-13-2012, 03:30 PM   #1
mcvey
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Default A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

I'd like the Forum's thoughts on this guys appraisal of the heavyweight champs of the past .


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Old 03-13-2012, 03:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

Thanks again mcvey...

It will be a good thing to read tonight......
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:01 PM   #3
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

I think the issue here is that rankings in comparison with the old days are being overcomplicated.

It is not under rating Dempsey to leave him out of the top 10.

Guys back then might have had him top 3, but since the 50's there's been plenty of guys who've established themselves as legitimate greats.

Lets say They had it going Louis, Johnson, Dempsey, Jeffries. It is very easy to fill that list with guys like Ali, Tyson, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis, Liston, Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Bivins, Patterson etc.

The order of the pre 50's guys stays the same, it is just that the list is more populated now.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
I think the issue here is that rankings in comparison with the old days are being overcomplicated.

It is not under rating Dempsey to leave him out of the top 10.

Guys back then might have had him top 3, but since the 50's there's been plenty of guys who've established themselves as legitimate greats.

Lets say They had it going Louis, Johnson, Dempsey, Jeffries. It is very easy to fill that list with guys like Ali, Tyson, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis, Liston, Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Bivins, Patterson etc.

The order of the pre 50's guys stays the same, it is just that the list is more populated now.


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Old 03-13-2012, 10:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
I'd like the Forum's thoughts on this guys appraisal of the heavyweight champs of the past .


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McVey, Eric Jorgensen has expressed my thoughts on the great heavyweights, with so much more clarity and eloquence that i could ever hope to convey...His article should be required reading for any serious
student of boxing's wonderful past...ESB readers ,especially the young posters please read what may be the most accurate and lucid analysis
of the great heavyweights and Jack Dempsey in particular...His reasoning
comes closer to the truth, than anyone you will EVER read.I'm awed...
Thanks McVey for this public service...
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Old 03-13-2012, 11:20 PM   #6
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

An interesting article, but I found this rather odd:

George Foreman: Foreman had his flaws, of course, but his awesome power would have destroyed all but a handful of his fellow champions. His immense physical strength, 2-handed punching power, iron jaw, under-rated speed and intense aggressiveness made up for his lack of polish and, usually, for his lack of stamina. A true monster who was good enough in his 40s to terrorize the division a generation after his prime had passed. Very under-rated.

Ron Lyle proved that the former was untrue.

As to the latter, GF "terrorized" the division in the 90s??

A very strange point of view to say the least. If you consider taking on pathetic opposition and circumventing all the top challengers to cop a criminally undeserved title shot "terrorizing the division" then I guess the writer is correct.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:13 AM   #7
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

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An interesting article, but I found this rather odd:

George Foreman: Foreman had his flaws, of course, but his awesome power would have destroyed all but a handful of his fellow champions. His immense physical strength, 2-handed punching power, iron jaw, under-rated speed and intense aggressiveness made up for his lack of polish and, usually, for his lack of stamina. A true monster who was good enough in his 40s to terrorize the division a generation after his prime had passed. Very under-rated.

Ron Lyle proved that the former was untrue.

As to the latter, GF "terrorized" the division in the 90s??

A very strange point of view to say the least. If you consider taking on pathetic opposition and circumventing all the top challengers to cop a criminally undeserved title shot "terrorizing the division" then I guess the writer is correct.
I agree on the second call. The first? Ron Lyle didn't disprove anything about how solid Foreman's jaw was. Foreman's entire career affirmed and reaffirmed that he had excellent punch resistance.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:16 AM   #8
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
I think the issue here is that rankings in comparison with the old days are being overcomplicated.

It is not under rating Dempsey to leave him out of the top 10.

Guys back then might have had him top 3, but since the 50's there's been plenty of guys who've established themselves as legitimate greats.

Lets say They had it going Louis, Johnson, Dempsey, Jeffries. It is very easy to fill that list with guys like Ali, Tyson, Frazier, Foreman, Lewis, Liston, Marciano, Charles, Walcott, Bivins, Patterson etc.

The order of the pre 50's guys stays the same, it is just that the list is more populated now.
Bivins?
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:51 AM   #9
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

If anything, the Lyle fight showcased Foreman's heart and recuperative abilities. Getting knocked down by Ron Lyle engaged in the slugfest they were in is no shame. He got up and stopped him.
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Old 03-14-2012, 02:27 AM   #10
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Quote:
Echelon 1:

1-Muhammad Ali

2-Jack Dempsey

3-Joe Louis

Echelon 2:

4-Jack Johnson

5-Jim Jeffries

6-George Foreman

7-Rocky Marciano

8-Joe Frazier

9-Gene Tunney

10-Larry Holmes

11-Sonny Liston

Echelon 3:

12-Riddick Bowe

13-Evander Holyfield

14-Mike Tyson

15-Sam Langford
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:55 AM   #11
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

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If anything, the Lyle fight showcased Foreman's heart and recuperative abilities. Getting knocked down by Ron Lyle engaged in the slugfest they were in is no shame. He got up and stopped him.
True, but I wasn't questioning his heart and recuperative abilities. I was questioning whether or not he had an "iron jaw". The Lyle fight proved to me that he didn't. Ron Lyle was the first heavy puncher who really got a chance to unload on Foreman. Knockdowns and staggerings were the result.

George Chuvalo had an iron jaw. Jake LaMotta had an iron jaw. Marvin Hagler had an iron jaw. Julio Cesar Chavez had an iron jaw. Prime George Foreman did not. A good one? Sure. IRON? Not by any reasonable standard.
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Old 03-14-2012, 05:05 AM   #12
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

He was stopped once in 81 fights leading way into his forties. He was mashed to shit against Moorer, Holyfield and so on along the way and they couldn't put him down after many huge, flush bombs. He got into a knockdown drag-out with Lyle, yes, a big puncher. I think Larry Holmes had an iron jaw but Mike Weaver put a big hurt on him, and I don't see that as any different. On a scale of 1-10, I'd rate 8-10 a top-notcher and I'd give Foreman an eight, with the McCalls and Chuvalos a 10, of course. But, yeah, Frazier and Morrison and Cooney got some very good shots in, themselves, all punchers and he stood up to those solidly too. A helluva tough nut to crack. In my opinion, as good as you get without being a true physical freak like a Chuvalo and McCall.
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Old 03-14-2012, 05:21 AM   #13
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[quote=Boxed Ears;12319893]He was stopped once in 81 fights leading way into his forties.

Yes, but only about 9 or 10 of those opponents were top 10 fighters. Foreman has fought more bums than probably any other heavyweight champion in history. Look at his record. To call about 85% of his opposition "bums" is a huge understatement. They were atrocious.



He was mashed to shit against Moorer, Holyfield and so on along the way and they couldn't put him down after many huge, flush bombs.

I was talking about a prime Foreman, not the fat, shock absorbing fighter he became later. Two different animals entirely. I can only surmise that his improved punch resistance had more to do with his increased mass (a whopping 260 lbs). A matter of physics.


He got into a knockdown drag-out with Lyle, yes, a big puncher. I think Larry Holmes had an iron jaw but Mike Weaver put a big hurt on him, and I don't see that as any different. On a scale of 1-10, I'd rate 8-10 a top-notcher and I'd give Foreman an eight, with the McCalls and Chuvalos a 10, of course.

Then I guess we just have to say that you and I have a different view on what constitutes an "iron jaw". Holmes and Foreman fall into the "good chin" department with me. A step below iron status.



But, yeah, Frazier and Morrison and Cooney got some very good shots in, themselves, all punchers and he stood up to those solidly too.

Frazier landed almost nothing against Foreman. I saw one, maybe two, DECENT left hooks. Nothing to write home about. Let's not go overboard here. If GF had taken a few more rounds of left hooks from a PRIME, IN SHAPE Frazier then I would agree with you. As it is Joe got blitzed and had no time to mount an offense.

A helluva tough nut to crack.

The later incarnation, yes. The prime one? I have my doubts. A good chin, but never proved to have an "iron" one.

Cheers
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Old 03-14-2012, 05:47 AM   #14
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

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True, but I wasn't questioning his heart and recuperative abilities. I was questioning whether or not he had an "iron jaw". The Lyle fight proved to me that he didn't. Ron Lyle was the first heavy puncher who really got a chance to unload on Foreman. Knockdowns and staggerings were the result.

George Chuvalo had an iron jaw. Jake LaMotta had an iron jaw. Marvin Hagler had an iron jaw. Julio Cesar Chavez had an iron jaw. Prime George Foreman did not. A good one? Sure. IRON? Not by any reasonable standard.
Foreman had a top chin ,imo. He absorbed acouple of left hooks from Frazier in Kingston ,without any reaction , as an old man, he got tagged solidly by Cooney, the punches registered with him , but he didn't go down.

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Old 03-14-2012, 06:00 AM   #15
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Default Re: A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

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Yes, but only about 9 or 10 of those opponents were top 10 fighters. Foreman has fought more bums than probably any other heavyweight champion in history. Look at his record. To call about 85% of his opposition "bums" is a huge understatement. They were atrocious.
We're talking 81 heavyweight fights containing numerous HOFers, here.
This guy fought many, many name fighters and several of them cracked like hell. That's not arguable, I don't think.



Quote:
I was talking about a prime Foreman, not the fat, shock absorbing fighter he became later. Two different animals entirely. I can only surmise that his improved punch resistance had more to do with his increased mass (a whopping 260 lbs). A matter of physics.
I seriously, seriously doubt aging and fattening made George Foreman's chin better. I'm not sure why anyone even thinks that.


Quote:
Then I guess we just have to say that you and I have a different view on what constitutes an "iron jaw". Holmes and Foreman fall into the "good chin" department with me. A step below iron status.
Hey, man, if you want to take a common term for world class punch resistance and apply it to those that most of us would consider the absolute most extreme examples of it and only apply the common term to those extremely uncommon and rare examples to disagree with a description in an article, that's fine. I see it like if you said someone was a big puncher and I said "Nope. Because they don't hit like Foreman, Liston or Shavers." That wouldn't be logical, to me. Because they don't need to hit as harder as the top three punchers I would think of. Just like if someone says Foreman has an iron jaw, I wouldn't disagree because he doesn't meet the absolute top few names I can think of. I just find it a weird thing to take exception to, is all.


Quote:
Frazier landed almost nothing against Foreman. I saw one, maybe two, DECENT left hooks. Nothing to write home about. Let's not go overboard here. If GF had taken a few more rounds of left hooks from a PRIME, IN SHAPE Frazier then I would agree with you. As it is Joe got blitzed and had no time to mount an offense.
I seem to remember Frazier landing quite a few hooks on George in their second fight, when George supposedly lost his mojo and Frazier was supposedly shot, but they say power is the last thing to go and I don't think Joe's had packed up and left with his vision. He wasn't doing anything to Foreman with them though. Foreman stood strong. What about Moorer and Morrison? And Briggs, and Holyfield and Cooney who bombed him without putting him down? Holy is no huge puncher but I think he cracked Tyson's chin with less flush shots, with his terrific accuracy and decent power. Is this the shock absorption theory? Does that theory apply to the unbreakable Butterbean as well? Fat=punch resistance? Or perhaps more muscle does it? But, no, that doesn't seem to have helped Briggs, or Morrison, or Moorer. Is it George's special combination of fat and muscle that he gained?


Quote:
The later incarnation, yes. The prime one? I have my doubts. A good chin, but never proved to have an "iron" one.

Cheers
Butterbean theory is what I'm calling it. Foreman didn't grow a chin, in my opinion. I do think the drying out ritual had much to do with being knocked down by Young and stopped but perfectly coherent against Ali, however, after tiring. And I think he did cover his chin better, in later years.
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