A CBZ Writers Thoughts On The Greatest Heavies

[JohnThomas1]

Surprise, surprise, surprise.

My omission of the 3 dominate heavyweights of the 1990s, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, and Riddick Bowe will no doubt raise a few eyebrows.

Ever heard of Lennox Lewis?? 29-1-1 thru the 90's including wins over Holyfield (x2 really), Tyson, Bruno, Goltoa, Mercer, Morrison, Tua, Rudduck, won unified title etc, etc.

Some excellent points in the article tho despite some real hero worship to the days of yore.

[ripcity]

Is this one of them "Back in my day" threads?

[thistle1]

I think he's unbiasly accurate and gives an excellent breakdown and account of facts.

His rating standard is perfect - in that as I always say rating is impossable because it typically leans too much on achievement, this looks solely on the facts, i.e "who's better than who at their best and in a fight with each other - there is no better way to rate = H2H...

Film footage WAS Shit, NOT the fighters, many, many more fighters, harder climb to Top Level, absolutely true, anybody that was there tells you that automatically, and that is the last point - the value of TOP men who were there recording and observing!!!

So I think he has made an excellent list, very good effort, Hats off to the man.

[DaveK]

Originally Posted by thistle1

I think he's unbiasly accurate and gives an excellent breakdown and account of facts.

His rating standard is perfect - in that as I always say rating is impossable because it typically leans too much on achievement, this looks solely on the facts, i.e "who's better than who at their best and in a fight with each other - there is no better way to rate = H2H...

Film footage WAS Shit, NOT the fighters, many, many more fighters, harder climb to Top Level, absolutely true, anybody that was there tells you that automatically, and that is the last point - the value of TOP men who were there recording and observing!!!

So I think he has made an excellent list, very good effort, Hats off to the man.

It was an interesting read and well thought out, but to say he's unbiased is preposterous.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by DaveK

It was an interesting read and well thought out, but to say he's unbiased is preposterous.

Unless you whole heartedly agree with his opinions. In that case, it more or less feels like he's bringing the truth to light.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

Surprise, surprise, surprise.



Ever heard of Lennox Lewis?? 29-1-1 thru the 90's including wins over Holyfield (x2 really), Tyson, Bruno, Goltoa, Mercer, Morrison, Tua, Rudduck, won unified title etc, etc.

Some excellent points in the article tho despite some real hero worship to the days of yore.

The Lewis omission was eyebrow raising, even taking into account when he wrote the column. Plus Bowe over both Holyfield and Tyson?

[thistle1]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

The Lewis omission was eyebrow raising, even taking into account when he wrote the column. Plus Bowe over both Holyfield and Tyson?

the Lewis omission is not that surprising, a lot of people don't rate him as high as he sometimes gets... Bowe, as the man stipulates "on their best night" could've/should.ve been perhaps the Best of his time.

it's subjective but equally all things considered he might have been, so achievements aside "on their best night" Bowe could beat these boys!

I agree too that they too could've just as well.

[DaveK]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Unless you whole heartedly agree with his opinions. In that case, it more or less feels like he's bringing the truth to light.

Even if I agree wholeheartedly with someone's point of view, I can still recognize my own bias. These are separate issues.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by thistle1

the Lewis omission is not that surprising, a lot of people don't rate him as high as he sometimes gets... Bowe, as the man stipulates "on their best night" could've/should.ve been perhaps the Best of his time.

it's subjective but equally all things considered he might have been, so achievements aside "on their best night" Bowe could beat these boys!

I agree too that they too could've just as well.

What Bowe's best night? Beating a hot and cold undersized heavy who is noted for grit and longevity but lost handily to likes of Moorer. Bowe lacks any depth to his resume whatsoever. And it has always made me suspicious the number of pushovers he was fed as champ and his firm reluctance to meet Lewis. No way is on par with Lewis.

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by DaveK

Even if I agree wholeheartedly with someone's point of view, I can still recognize my own bias. These are separate issues.

Right. Many can't separate them.

Originally Posted by Seamus

What Bowe's best night? Beating a hot and cold undersized heavy who is noted for grit and longevity but lost handily to likes of Moorer. Bowe lacks any depth to his resume whatsoever. And it has always made me suspicious the number of pushovers he was fed as champ and his firm reluctance to meet Lewis. No way is on par with Lewis.

Taking '93 Dokes as his first defense was a catastrophe. Jesse Ferguson followed, before Holyfield won it back. He fought more game opposition for Continental Americas and WBO titles. Herbie Hide had him out on his feet.

[DaveK]

I agree; his dismissal (inexcusable ignoring is more accurate) of Lewis and instead going into a Bowe debate at all is alarming. There really is no comparison in resumes and fulfilled potential.

Even if his argument was on potential alone, Lewis should be in the discussion.

[Seamus]

Originally Posted by DaveK

I agree; his dismissal (inexcusable ignoring is more accurate) of Lewis and instead going into a Bowe debate at all is alarming. There really is no comparison in resumes and fulfilled potential.

Even if his argument was on potential alone, Lewis should be in the discussion.

Even if it was potential, remember that Lewis stopped him in the amateurs.

So much is made of Bowe's "inside game". More should be made of the fact that he should have fought from the outside and used his length and height to his advantage... and that he should have worked harder on his defense, which for a big guy, is better on the outside.

[Hands of Iron]

Lewis has definitely become more appreciated in the time since his retirement, but so much so that 12 years ago he wouldnt garner consideration for the Top 15?! He had almost put in all his work by that point, wiped out multiple up and coming, highly rated opposition and beat #1 Holyfield basically twice through 1999.

I tend to place as much if not more blame on Rock Newman for what Bowe didnt do and who he didnt fight, but I'm not going to base a rating off pure speculation. And if we are, I think he's far too easy to hit and would find Tyson quite different from Holyfield if he tried to slug it out with him at ring center. He shouldnt rate above any of three, even having beat Holyfield 2 of 3. He did virtually nada outside of the series. And I actually like Bowe quite a bit.

[Longhhorn71]

Originally Posted by Surf-Bat

An interesting article, but I found this rather odd:

George Foreman: Foreman had his flaws, of course, but his awesome power would have destroyed all but a handful of his fellow champions. His immense physical strength, 2-handed punching power, iron jaw, under-rated speed and intense aggressiveness made up for his lack of polish and, usually, for his lack of stamina. A true monster who was good enough in his 40s to terrorize the division a generation after his prime had passed. Very under-rated.

Ron Lyle proved that the former was untrue.

As to the latter, GF "terrorized" the division in the 90s??

A very strange point of view to say the least. If you consider taking on pathetic opposition and circumventing all the top challengers to cop a criminally undeserved title shot "terrorizing the division" then I guess the writer is correct.

Tyson's rumored statement to Don King regarding a Foreman fight:
"You get in the ring with that animal".

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by Longhhorn71

Tyson's rumored statement to Don King regarding a Foreman fight:
"You get in the ring with that animal".

I posted that full column. Lotierzo has been close enough to people inside the sport to be telling the truth. It lost credibility when every other paragraph he's basically saying: "And I think Foreman wouldve knocked Tyson out!" or "Tyson's speed would be a non-factor here".