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View Poll Results: Who Takes it?
Holyfield Decision 19 35.85%
Holyfield KO/TKO 13 24.53%
Liston Decision 5 9.43%
Liston KO/TKO 13 24.53%
Too Close To Call 3 5.66%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-18-2012, 04:56 PM   #31
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by DaveK View Post
I was more thinking of Holy's later-round KO loss, mr. snippy...


And just because a guy never did it doesn't mean he couldn't. There are tons of examples of that concept.
Yes, just as nobody picks Tyson to win a decision in a fantasy fight. He either stops them early or loses, even though he took his share of wide decisions.

That said, Holy got too much speed of hand and foot to lose this one, and the chin, recuperative powers and heart to stay upright under Liston's power.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
I bet everything on Malignaggi to stop Amir Khan

Since then I've just put my 75 on the selection with the best odds hoping I'll strike lucky.


That's ****ing tragic bro, I feel for ya
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:06 PM   #33
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

Ever since commenting on this thread I've had a niggling feeling about Liston's actual skillset.

On one hand I'm thinking Holy has beaten far superior men and should be favoured.

On the other I'm thinking, but Liston beat up 5 of the top 6 year end 58 guys in dominant fashion and ALi aside would have had a long rule.

But then I'm thinking, yeah but he didn't.

So then I'm thinking, maybe Liston is just a worse version of Bowe, smaller, slower, less powerful.

So then I'm thinking that considering how competitive Holy was with bowe, maybe he should be favoured against Liston.

I'm at a loss. I watch the guy and marvel at his skills. I read the guys record and think "meh"

Was he really this multi-dimensional h2h monster, or was he just a man with a good jab who could bang?

Despite how good he does look, he looked very average against Ali and I know it's Ali, but it's an Ali who didn't look good against Jones nor Cooper.

Liston has never beaten a guy as good as Holy, but Holy has beaten guys better than Liston.

I think my appreciation of his H2H ability is plummeting, can anyone bring me back?
Is there any reason for me to dismiss the notion of Holy side stepping the jab and firing off a combo?
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:08 PM   #34
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by Foreman Hook View Post
Manbearpig - Do you not reckon WARRIOR Holyfeild might make "SPINELESS" Sonny "lummox" Liston QUIT on his QUITING-STOOL?? This really is a Giant-Killer VS Spineless-BULLY fight.

ALSO - how would Holyfield act in Retalitation when Spineless Sonny the brutish bully And notorious bastard puts illegal Solvents on his gloves to try to blind him?? Liston ALWAYS did this when he faced adversity.
OMG XPERT-post m8!!

Heh heh heh
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by Foreman Hook View Post
Manbearpig - Do you not reckon WARRIOR Holyfeild might make "SPINELESS" Sonny "lummox" Liston QUIT on his QUITING-STOOL?? This really is a Giant-Killer VS Spineless-BULLY fight.

ALSO - how would Holyfield act in Retalitation when Spineless Sonny the brutish bully And notorious bastard puts illegal Solvents on his gloves to try to blind him?? Liston ALWAYS did this when he faced adversity.
Excellent points as always, Hooooooooooooooooooooook!
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:12 PM   #36
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

Holyfield fought a similar opponent with more heart (Old, fat Foreman) and handled him easily enough. Liston would be ****ing cannon fodder.

Overrated, hyped up old prick.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:23 PM   #37
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by manbearpig View Post
Holyfield fought a similar opponent with more heart (Old, fat Foreman) and handled him easily enough. Liston would be ****ing cannon fodder.

Overrated, hyped up old prick.
That's actually a very bad argument for Holyfield. In fact, it's a good argument for Liston in this matchup.

The only thing you may be right about is the fact that Liston's odds of quitting in fantasy fights are astronomically higher than anyone cares to admit. Especially if you happen to be a Liston fan. I can see it now.

All that God and Holy stuff. Talking about praising the Lord... I don't want any of that he's crazy.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:24 PM   #38
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

I think Bowe was more powerful in the way of physicality, but having more meat in his punches is debatatable.... I do believe Liston was quicker on his feet and more mobile, and not slower than Bowe at all.

I'll say that the mythical, nostalgic, version of Liston should have been a hell of a lot more competitive with Ali had those things been true or real... At the same time, it isn't Listons fault that the only guy to push him was the best heavyweight h2h ever and other than that, he wasn't in a deep era of danger men.

And I'll have to revisit the Bowe-Holyfield fight again to see where he went wrong. Am I right in remembering that he lost the war on the inside, foolishly banging with Bowe? It wasn't because he was being outboxed, and I think Holy was winning for the most part outside...

In this case, the boxing Liston theory wouldn't apply, even if you can make a case for comparing Liston to Bowe.

This may boil down to a case of which guy goes forward the most? Who does more giving ground? Both guys had a decent reverse gear, but Holyfield is the better counterpuncher, the busier, throws more combinations, and I think, has the mentality to impose himself on the other guy for longer stretches.

I think I just answered my own questions and confirmed my initial pick....

Holyfield W15 Liston
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:27 PM   #39
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Ever since commenting on this thread I've had a niggling feeling about Liston's actual skillset.

On one hand I'm thinking Holy has beaten far superior men and should be favoured.

On the other I'm thinking, but Liston beat up 5 of the top 6 year end 58 guys in dominant fashion and ALi aside would have had a long rule.

But then I'm thinking, yeah but he didn't.

So then I'm thinking, maybe Liston is just a worse version of Bowe, smaller, slower, less powerful.

So then I'm thinking that considering how competitive Holy was with bowe, maybe he should be favoured against Liston.

I'm at a loss. I watch the guy and marvel at his skills. I read the guys record and think "meh"

Was he really this multi-dimensional h2h monster, or was he just a man with a good jab who could bang?

Despite how good he does look, he looked very average against Ali and I know it's Ali, but it's an Ali who didn't look good against Jones nor Cooper.

Liston has never beaten a guy as good as Holy, but Holy has beaten guys better than Liston.

I think my appreciation of his H2H ability is plummeting, can anyone bring me back?
Is there any reason for me to dismiss the notion of Holy side stepping the jab and firing off a combo?
Everything indicates why Holyfield is superior and would win here.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:28 PM   #40
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Ever since commenting on this thread I've had a niggling feeling about Liston's actual skillset.

On one hand I'm thinking Holy has beaten far superior men and should be favoured.

On the other I'm thinking, but Liston beat up 5 of the top 6 year end 58 guys in dominant fashion and ALi aside would have had a long rule.

But then I'm thinking, yeah but he didn't.

So then I'm thinking, maybe Liston is just a worse version of Bowe, smaller, slower, less powerful.

So then I'm thinking that considering how competitive Holy was with bowe, maybe he should be favoured against Liston.

I'm at a loss. I watch the guy and marvel at his skills. I read the guys record and think "meh"

Was he really this multi-dimensional h2h monster, or was he just a man with a good jab who could bang?

Despite how good he does look, he looked very average against Ali and I know it's Ali, but it's an Ali who didn't look good against Jones nor Cooper.

Liston has never beaten a guy as good as Holy, but Holy has beaten guys better than Liston.

I think my appreciation of his H2H ability is plummeting, can anyone bring me back?
Is there any reason for me to dismiss the notion of Holy side stepping the jab and firing off a combo?
Holy's movement and angles is going to give Liston loads of problems, more so than it did Bowe.

Liston is more powerful than Bowe, but he's also less fluid and more ponderous. His fighting heart and ability to dig deep are huge question marks. We don't really know if Liston could win the type of fight Bowe did in the 1st one even if it actually suits him.

I also think Bowe might be better on the inside. I tend to think Liston's combinations tend to get a little clunky. There's no way he actually finishes Holyfield.

It's a tough fight to predict. But at Holy's best I think he ought to be a slight favorite. Liston on paper is awesome. But boxing is just as much mental as it is physical. Liston has his own weaknesses and flaws to begin with. That's why they play the games... or in boxing, "Fight the fights."
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:32 PM   #41
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by DaveK View Post
I think Bowe was more powerful in the way of physicality, but having more meat in his punches is debatatable.... I do believe Liston was quicker on his feet and more mobile, and not slower than Bowe at all.


Bowe is a big guy, so I get how this could be deceptive. It's just Holy made him look a bit slow footage, more than anything. If Liston has quicker feet, it's marginal. I just don't see it, though.

Quote:
And I'll have to revisit the Bowe-Holyfield fight again to see where he went wrong. Am I right in remembering that he lost the war on the inside, foolishly banging with Bowe? It wasn't because he was being outboxed, and I think Holy was winning for the most part outside...
This is the breakdown, although Bowe was competitive and winning on the outside as well, too.

Quote:
In this case, the boxing Liston theory wouldn't apply, even if you can make a case for comparing Liston to Bowe.

This may boil down to a case of which guy goes forward the most? Who does more giving ground? Both guys had a decent reverse gear, but Holyfield is the better counterpuncher, the busier, throws more combinations, and I think, has the mentality to impose himself on the other guy for longer stretches.

I think I just answered my own questions and confirmed my initial pick....

Holyfield W15 Liston
Yeah. We're looking at this wrong. Holyfield could try dashing and moving like he beat Bowe the second time. Except that's not going to apply. Liston is likely to push forward and stalk forward and be more aggressive attacking Holyfield than Bowe was (Who was content on trying to out-box Holyfield in way he could). This plays well to Holyfield's counter-punching ability.

Holyfield decision is a great call.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:43 PM   #42
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

The loss to ali wouldn't be so bad if he'd have reestablished himself as a top contender to ali.

Fights with cooper, jones, ingo could have gone a way to reestablishing himself.

Who was the best mover liston fought? Probably ali I think.

Holy has a speed advantage both hands and feet.

It's a tough one. I do definitely think bowe is a better version of liston.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:58 PM   #43
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post
That's actually a very bad argument for Holyfield. In fact, it's a good argument for Liston in this matchup.

The only thing you may be right about is the fact that Liston's odds of quitting in fantasy fights are astronomically higher than anyone cares to admit. Especially if you happen to be a Liston fan. I can see it now.

All that God and Holy stuff. Talking about praising the Lord... I don't want any of that he's crazy.
Yeah, I know actually. It is a great argument against myself I made now I think about it. Depends how much better you think Liston was than Old, fat Foreman (not that much for me) - and had much less heart and determination.
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Old 03-18-2012, 06:12 PM   #44
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
The loss to ali wouldn't be so bad if he'd have reestablished himself as a top contender to ali.

Fights with cooper, jones, ingo could have gone a way to reestablishing himself.

Who was the best mover liston fought? Probably ali I think.
Machen moved like hell against Liston, so did Whitehust... Obviously Ali was better overall and was a better mover than either, but those guys lasted the distance... Mythical Liston would have destroyed those guys.

My point is that Liston pounded out decisions over them despite being up against guys who wouldn't sit still...
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:27 PM   #45
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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I was more thinking of Holy's later-round KO loss, mr. snippy...


And just because a guy never did it doesn't mean he couldn't. There are tons of examples of that concept.
Well it's a pretty shitty example; Holy had Hepatitis in Bowe III. Didn't you notice something was badly wrong with his stamina? Either that, or the Hepatitis was a cover story for another heart problem with his left ventricle, for fear of having his boxing license revoked. The next time Holy gassed so seriously & suddenly exhausted at that point in a fight was in '03 against Toney, when he was shot-to-shit.

If you want to see a healthy Holy's late round fortitude, watch round 10 of Holy-Tyson I, see the tremendous nukes he absorbed as if bullet-proof, then feint with his footwork towards the end of the round, & catch Tyson with a magnificent counter. Speaking of counters, Liston is so ridiculously slow in comparison to Holy, he'd be eating clean counters all night. Also, watch the brutal shellacking of heavy artillery Holy took in the 10th of his first war with Bowe, & how he came back strong at the end of the round.

Anyway, Holy's late impressive round stoppage wins against Dokes, Steward, Tyson & Moorer suggest vastly superior ability & endurance to stop a man late in a fight, in comparison Liston's singular late cuts stoppage over unskilled defenseless punchbag Chuck Wepner.
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