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View Poll Results: Who Takes it?
Holyfield Decision 19 35.85%
Holyfield KO/TKO 13 24.53%
Liston Decision 5 9.43%
Liston KO/TKO 13 24.53%
Too Close To Call 3 5.66%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-19-2012, 04:15 PM   #61
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

24-14 Holyfield and 3 Draws... I think the results are too close, I feel that the numbers should favor Holyfield even more so.

Liston has become overrated over the years IMO. I consider him great but not as great as many do on this forum.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:07 PM   #62
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

Prime vs. Prime- Holyfield is 2" taller. Liston's reach was listed as 6 1/2" longer... which I think is pure bullshlt. Their weight is close. Holyfield's neck is 2" thicker. Chest and arms similar in size but Holyfield is much more ripped.

Holyfield is the faster man. Holyfield has the better footwork. Holyfield proved his durability vs. bigger and harder punching men than Liston faced.

Power? Sure, I'll give Liston the nod here but probably not as big of a nod as some will.

Strength? Liston was a very strong man but Holyfield was a little stronger IMO... this has little to do with punching power but useful in other ways.

Jab? Liston had a good jab, no doubt. His jab was also hard. Holyfield had a good jab but it sometimes wasn't a big part of his fight plan because he often fought big athletic guys like Bowe x3 and Lewis x2 and others. When he fought someone similar in size or even a bigger slow guy his jab was very good. Vs. Foreman, Bowe (their 2nd fight), Tyson x2, Valuev Holyfield's jab looked good. It even looked decent in his rematch vs. Lewis. Liston gets the nod here but again... not by as much as some think.

H2H? I'll take Holyfield by late round stoppage.

Liston struggled with a 195 Lb Johnny Summerlin in his 6th and 7th pro fights (W8 and WSD). In the rematch Summerlin suffered a fractured nose during training but still won on one of the scorecards. They were Summerlin's 22nd and 23rd pro fights.

In Holyfield's 12th pro fight he beat Hall of Famer Dwight Qawi (WSD15) for the WBA CW World Title. He stopped Qawi in 4 rounds when they fought again.

Liston lost to 180 Lb Marty Marshall in his 8th pro fight (LSD8, Liston suffered a broken jaw). He stopped Marshall in 6 rounds of their 2nd fight. He beat Marshall in their 3rd fight as well, W10.

Holyfield turned pro at age 21 (almost 22, 1984) and did not lose until after his 30th birthday, 1992. During these 8 years he went 28-0 (22) overall, 10-0 (7) in World Title Fights, and 4-0 (1) vs. Hall of Famers.

Liston went 2-2 (2) vs. Hall of Famers. He beat the likes of Cleveland Williams x2, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, and Floyd Patterson x2 among others. At 6'3" with an 80" reach and 215 Lbs... Williams was the biggest of this group... but certainly not the best.

Holyfield beat Dwight Qawi x2, Carlos DeLeon, Ossie Ocasio, Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Riddick Bowe 1 out of 3, Michael Moorer 1 out of 2, Ray Mercer, Mike Tyson x2, John Ruiz, Hasim Rahman, Fres Oquendo, and plenty of other good fighters.

After age 30 Holyfield had mixed results but managed to fight in another 15 World Title Fights... going 6-7-2 in these fights and 2-1-1 (1) vs. Hall of Famers Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis... bringing his career totals to 16-7-2 (9) in World Title Fights and 6-1-1 (2) vs. Hall of Famers.

One more thing about Holyfield that some may not know... Holyfield has beat more "Lineal" HW World Champs than anybody. He has beat Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, Tyson x2, and Rahman. 7 true HW Champs, 8 wins!

He also beat CW and HW world title belt holders... Booze, Qawi x2, DeLeon, Ocasio, Parkey, Thomas, Dokes, Mercer, Czyz, and Ruiz. 10 Champs, 11 wins!

He also drew with Lineal HW Champ Lewis.

The only world title belt holders he faced and never beat or drew with were Byrd, Chagaev, and Valuev. He was over 40 in all of these losses... and he should have beat Valuev.

21 different world champs... 19 wins, 2 draws
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:13 PM   #63
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by Hookie View Post
Prime vs. Prime- Holyfield is 2" taller. Liston's reach was listed as 6 1/2" longer... which I think is pure bullshlt. Their weight is close. Holyfield's neck is 2" thicker. Chest and arms similar in size but Holyfield is much more ripped.
this pic accurately shows the size of Sonny Liston when fighting Ali, who was 6'2 with 79" reach according to Angelo Dundee

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Liston does not look 6'1 with 84" reach to me, those are exaggerated measurements to glorify him
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:13 PM   #64
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hookie View Post
Prime vs. Prime- Holyfield is 2" taller. Liston's reach was listed as 6 1/2" longer... which I think is pure bullshlt. Their weight is close. Holyfield's neck is 2" thicker. Chest and arms similar in size but Holyfield is much more ripped.

Holyfield is the faster man. Holyfield has the better footwork. Holyfield proved his durability vs. bigger and harder punching men than Liston faced.

Power? Sure, I'll give Liston the nod here but probably not as big of a nod as some will.

Strength? Liston was a very strong man but Holyfield was a little stronger IMO... this has little to do with punching power but useful in other ways.

Jab? Liston had a good jab, no doubt. His jab was also hard. Holyfield had a good jab but it sometimes wasn't a big part of his fight plan because he often fought big athletic guys like Bowe x3 and Lewis x2 and others. When he fought someone similar in size or even a bigger slow guy his jab was very good. Vs. Foreman, Bowe (their 2nd fight), Tyson x2, Valuev Holyfield's jab looked good. It even looked decent in his rematch vs. Lewis. Liston gets the nod here but again... not by as much as some think.

H2H? I'll take Holyfield by late round stoppage.

Liston struggled with a 195 Lb Johnny Summerlin in his 6th and 7th pro fights (W8 and WSD). In the rematch Summerlin suffered a fractured nose during training but still won on one of the scorecards. They were Summerlin's 22nd and 23rd pro fights.

In Holyfield's 12th pro fight he beat Hall of Famer Dwight Qawi (WSD15) for the WBA CW World Title. He stopped Qawi in 4 rounds when they fought again.

Liston lost to 180 Lb Marty Marshall in his 8th pro fight (LSD8, Liston suffered a broken jaw). He stopped Marshall in 6 rounds of their 2nd fight. He beat Marshall in their 3rd fight as well, W10.

Holyfield turned pro at age 21 (almost 22, 1984) and did not lose until after his 30th birthday, 1992. During these 8 years he went 28-0 (22) overall, 10-0 (7) in World Title Fights, and 4-0 (1) vs. Hall of Famers.

Liston went 2-2 (2) vs. Hall of Famers. He beat the likes of Cleveland Williams x2, Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, and Floyd Patterson x2 among others. At 6'3" with an 80" reach and 215 Lbs... Williams was the biggest of this group... but certainly not the best.

Holyfield beat Dwight Qawi x2, Carlos DeLeon, Ossie Ocasio, Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes, George Foreman, Larry Holmes, Riddick Bowe 1 out of 3, Michael Moorer 1 out of 2, Ray Mercer, Mike Tyson x2, John Ruiz, Hasim Rahman, Fres Oquendo, and plenty of other good fighters.

After age 30 Holyfield had mixed results but managed to fight in another 15 World Title Fights... going 6-7-2 in these fights and 2-1-1 (1) vs. Hall of Famers Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis... bringing his career totals to 16-7-2 (9) in World Title Fights and 6-1-1 (2) vs. Hall of Famers.

One more thing about Holyfield that some may not know... Holyfield has beat more "Lineal" HW World Champs than anybody. He has beat Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, Tyson x2, and Rahman. 7 true HW Champs, 8 wins!

He also beat CW and HW world title belt holders... Booze, Qawi x2, DeLeon, Ocasio, Parkey, Thomas, Dokes, Mercer, Czyz, and Ruiz. 10 Champs, 11 wins!

He also drew with Lineal HW Champ Lewis.

The only world title belt holders he faced and never beat or drew with were Byrd, Chagaev, and Valuev. He was over 40 in all of these losses... and he should have beat Valuev.

21 different world champs... 19 wins, 2 draws
Draw with lewis was a gift.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:16 PM   #65
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Draw with lewis was a gift.
yes but funny thing is if the rematch was scored a draw and the first fight to lewis then yes there would be a third fight and lewis would win

no shame in losing to a primed lewis at his age or any age but he should not of tried his balls off to ko lewis in round 3 that was silly
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:16 PM   #66
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by Tin Man Waldo View Post
yes but funny thing is if the rematch was scored a draw and the first fight to lewis then yes there would be a third fight and lewis would win

no shame in losing to a primed lewis at his age or any age but he should not of tried his balls off to ko lewis in round 3 that was silly
I feel that Lewis won their first fight, a case can be made for Holyfield in the rematch... a draw would have been fine, Lewis would have won a 3rd bout IMO.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:30 PM   #67
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by Tin Man Waldo View Post
this pic accurately shows the size of Sonny Liston when fighting Ali, who was 6'2 with 79" reach according to Angelo Dundee

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Liston does not look 6'1 with 84" reach to me, those are exaggerated measurements to glorify him
I don't think so, I think they're about right. The picture above shows Liston's arm retracted, not extended, and who knows if his knees were bent or not.

Here his arms seem to be very long, as his reach would indicate.
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Old 03-19-2012, 09:43 PM   #68
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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I don't think so, I think they're about right. The picture above shows Liston's arm retracted, not extended, and who knows if his knees were bent or not.

Here his arms seem to be very long, as his reach would indicate.
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their reach looks equal here

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Old 03-20-2012, 05:21 AM   #69
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

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Originally Posted by Robbi View Post
However, once they opened up and things got hot, he'd be troubled. Liston would probably hurt Holyfield like Bowe did in the 10th round of their first fight. He's got more than enough power to have Evander's alarm bells ringing. One thing Holyfield has in return....Tremendous recovery powers while under pressure. I think he would weather the storm. Holyfield on points.
That would follow conventional wisdom and that's a fair call, but honestly I feel Holyfield would outbrawl and outwork Liston.

Holyfield was not by definition a puncher, and his punches certainly lacked the brute force of many other big names and not-so-big names, but he was an excellent counterpuncher and had very good timing.
He punched great in combinations and had a very nice selection of punches.
All these things added up to a very effective hitter overall. If one considers some of the guys he dropped/stopped or staggered, it's impressive.
(Wobbled and dropped Bowe, stopped Tyson, dropped Mercer, staggered Foreman etc.)
Some very tough chins felt his punches.

I also think he has the chin to absorb single bombs from Liston and the recovery rate (as you say) to weather the stormy moments. The man had fantastic powers of recovery. He also has the strength inside to keep Liston more than honest.
(I'm talking of the Holyfield who was north of 210)

All in all, I don't see why he shouldn't do well going toe-to-toe with Liston, as long as he's smart about it.
I'd favour the Evander with his quicker hands punching in combination and effective counter-punching over the bigger bombs thrown by Sonny.

In a jabbing contest, I'd favour Liston. Boxers could diffuse Evander somewhat.
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:57 AM   #70
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

I think this is partly backlash for Liston being so overrated dismissing him offhand. The guy was a hell of a fighter. If Holyfield brawls he probably loses a close fight in which he is shellacked early and rallies to almost stop Sonny. If he fights him like he did Bowe the second time relatively easy decision win.
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Old 03-20-2012, 10:56 AM   #71
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

Liston was for real. He was a sharper version of George Foreman. Unlike Foreman he ultilized his power jab and threw shorter straighter punches. His stamina was better as well.

With all that said this is a tough matchup. I think Holyfield has problems with the jab of Liston and he would take some damage from it. Evander has the advantage in speed and in his prime his legs were good.

On the mental side of it Holyfield is all wrong for Liston. Sluggers like to intimidate with their power. Holyfield is gonna take every fight into deep water, someplace that has nothing to do with boxing and everything to do with desire, heart and conditioning.

Liston lands a good shot and Hoylfied comes back with two of his own. Eventually Sonny breaks.

Mid to late rd stoppage for the Real Deal.
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:59 AM   #72
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

@DaveK - Liston has a V.OVERRATED CHIN, IT IS A FACT!!

FIRST - read And acknowledge this XPERT-post by sauhund below -

Quote:
Originally Posted by sauhund II View Post
The question will be are both of them on the juice or Holyfield only ?

Anyway , I take Holyfield, far more proven against modern B-I-G skilled Hwt champs not beansticks......Liston actually fought ONE talented new generation Hwt...........and quit twice.
IMAGINE if Heavyweight Holyfield fought Liston's shitty comp, it would be like fighting much worse versions of his own Cruiserweight comp, while bulked-up as a fully-fledged Heavyweight. How many times does Holyfield get dropped by Liston's lot?? ZERO, ALWAYS A ZERO!

NOW read my stuff -

I proper strongly think Holyfield harder than Ex-Middleweight Martin.


BORKED

BORKED


Knocked cold as a corpse by a FORMER MIDDLEWEIGHT with a 50% KO record.


Liston was in good muscular shape @219lbs as you can see in teh film-footage And was only 37 years old.



NOW watch Holyfield show his CAST-IRON mandible as he takes MASSIVE BOMBS clean on teh chin from SUPERHEAVYWEIGHT-PUNCHERS And full-sized Heavyweight BANGERS in long brutal WARS:

BORKED

BORKED

BORKED

BORKED

BORKED

also watch Holyfield VS Mercer


Holyfield was massively OUT-WEIGHTED in ALL of them fights VS huge-punchers, by up to 7, 25, 30, even 49LBS!!

HOW many fights does Liston show a great chin in VS proper powerful heavyweight-punchers??

I'll give you a clue m8 - ZERO, ALWAYS A ZERO.




Foreman Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!

Last edited by Foreman Hook; 03-21-2012 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:22 AM   #73
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

ALSO Liston was sparked by one-punch in Round 1 by a young Ali.

BORKED


NOW Ali is teh GOAT, But he is no puncher at all, And hits no harder then Holyfield.

Liston did not see this fast punch coming, And teh ones you dont see.... ANYWAY my point is Holyfield would land fast unseen counter-punches on Lummox Liston like he did to Tinkerbell Tyson, But it would be way easier to do VS Liston, as he is slooooooooooooooooooooow And Tyson is fast as ****.

Liston-Fangirls claim this was a dive - BUT Liston's own wife Geraldine always said Sonny told her numerous times personally it was NOT a dive, it was a real KO loss. MAYBE Liston quit by not getting up faster, But i dont think he could of got up faster, as his legs were JELLY. Watch Liston fall over again as he tries his hardest to get back up! It is a bit like Tyson VS Berbick, were teh unlucky KO-victim got their equilibrium-scrambled by a big punch And cannot get up without falling back down against their will. People do like to complain like bitches about how Joey Walcott reffed this fight, But most refs would of jumped in And called it a TKO when Liston/another boxer helplessly falls back over to teh canvas as they struggle to get up, FACT.


Foreman Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:41 AM   #74
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

I have no attachment to Liston or Holyfield, so the fanboy or bias labels don't stick here... Give me a Frazier thread and I may admit to some bias, but here: nope...

As I said in a previous post, just because a fighter didn't do it, doesn't mean they couldn't.... I agree that Holyfield stays upright for all of Liston's competition, and on the flip side, perhaps Liston falls to all or some of the guys Holyfield did.

I'm not making a case for Liston having the greatest chin ever, I just stated that he obviously had a solid chin and proved it by taking bombs in two fights from the unquestionably murderous-hitting Williams.

I completely reject the Martin fight, as any objective person would concede that Liston was totally washed up and not a representation of himself in his prime...

As for the Ali fight (rematch), I stated in a previous post as well that I throw that one out. There's too much controversy surrounding it to be taken at face value. I seriously doubt he went down from that punch legitimately, plus the cluster**** that ensued at the hands of Walcott muddied the waters further. As for Geraldine and rewatching the fight, I've seen it a million times and I think people see what they want to see- you see a jelly-legged, dumbed-up Liston, where I see a horrible acting job.

Take a look at some of Liston's prime fights... He's not "slooooooooooooooooooooow". He isn't greased lightning, but he's fast enough to cut off the ring and had underrated footwork. And that version of Tyson wasn't as fast as the prime version, either, so let's be honest here. You're stretching a bit.

I'm trying to stay as objective as possible, and give the benefit of the doubt to both guys in cases of doubt...

I just stated the fact that Liston wasn't down in his prime and that Holyfield was, multiple times.

From that, my logic is that if anyone if getting hurt, it's more likely Holyfield, as he's been down more and Liston is a known puncher. Liston demonstrated how he reacts under heavy fire from a much bigger puncher than Holyfield (although Holy was a better puncher).
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Old 03-21-2012, 10:51 AM   #75
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Default Re: Holyfield Vs Liston

You IGNORED teh most v.important points i made, so i will not be giving two shits about your drivel.

SO Cleveland Williams is a "murderous puncher" cos of his KO's over nightclub boozer bouncers, taxi drivers, factory workers And bus drivers??

ANYWAY Crapola Cleve BADLY ROCKED Liston a canny few times in them two 1.5 Round fights they had, But he desperately covered up to save his shaky chin.

OK sorry he did KO emanciated beanpole Terrell who @197LBS And 6'6 was a malnutriniched starving stringbean stick-insect.



Foreman Hooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooook!
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