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View Poll Results: Will Wlad Klit make the 10 extra Title Defenses needed to BREAK Louis's record???
Hell Yes!! 9 34.62%
Hell no! 17 65.38%
Voters: 26. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-18-2012, 01:19 PM   #16
Foreman Hook
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Wlad's defences should be counted from beating Byrd. That's when he became the number 1 HW and that's a true barometer of comparison.

I think he's on 11 is he not? so he needs another 14.

3 fights a year, 5 more years? big ask. very big ask.

If he does, he's a lock for my top 3.
If Wladdy Klit did have 14 more title defences And pick up the WBC belt when Big Bro Vitlay retires along the way, i would put him at no.2 @Heavyweight behind only GOAT Ali.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:20 PM   #17
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he can

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Originally Posted by kenmore View Post
We will never see an undisputed heavyweight champion again, except for maybe occasional short (several months) title reigns. For this reason, we have to regard the obvious "best" beltholder as the equivalent of an undisputed champ. That's Vlad.
No, not for me.

What will happen is the two best fighters in the division will meet and establish a new lineage. So if Wlad DID fight Vitali, that would result in a new champion, regardless of baubles.

This is Ring Magazine general policy and it's a good one. "In exceptional circumstances" they're recognise #1 v #3 which is what happened when Wlad met Chagaev. A lot of people decided to follow suit, and i'm fine with that.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:25 PM   #18
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

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Originally Posted by Foreman Hook View Post
If Wladdy Klit did have 14 more title defences And pick up the WBC belt when Big Bro Vitlay retires along the way, i would put him at no.2 @Heavyweight behind only GOAT Ali.
If he can match the "past-present-future" success that Louis did, I might think of supplanting him, but I'd have to wait and see.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:27 PM   #19
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Wlad's defences should be counted from beating Byrd. That's when he became the number 1 HW and that's a true barometer of comparison.

I think he's on 11 is he not? so he needs another 14.

3 fights a year, 5 more years? big ask. very big ask.

If he does, he's a lock for my top 3.
Do you think he'll fight a great opponent in those 14 fights? If so, who? Because they should already be active and yet I don't see anything like potential greatness out there.

If not, how can anyone justify a top 3 position when the fighter in question hasn't ever beaten a great opponent?
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:30 PM   #20
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

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Originally Posted by Foreman Hook View Post
If Wladdy Klit did have 14 more title defences And pick up the WBC belt when Big Bro Vitlay retires along the way, i would put him at no.2 @Heavyweight behind only GOAT Ali.
Joe Bugner is next up in May. Marvis Frazier in June, it should be no problem.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:33 PM   #21
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

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Originally Posted by Jack View Post
Do you think he'll fight a great opponent in those 14 fights? If so, who? Because they should already be active and yet I don't see anything like potential greatness out there.

If not, how can anyone justify a top 3 position when the fighter in question hasn't ever beaten a great opponent?
I cannot predict the future.

The guy who seemingly had the most potential, imo, was solis.

I'd justify a top 3 position based on the most dominant championship run in history (assuming he's still beating top 5 opponents regularly).

If to become great, you have to beat a great, how did the cycle begin? who was the first great person and how did they become so?

Either way, if you weren't to recognise him as top 3, assuming he did get 14 more meaningful defences in with a good percentage against top 5 opposition, then we'd have different criteria for greatness
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:38 PM   #22
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

Unification means nothing. He'll have 4 belts to hold his pants up, whoop-de-doo. 4 x [bullsh*t] = [bullsh*t].

What's with all this affirmative action for champions? Is boxing that desperate? A fighter fights -he should never be "appointed" champion just because most think he's the best out there.

How can a champion become the real thing without fighting the number one guy if he's number two or the the number two guy if he's number one?

Wlad has yet to faced the next best when he was the best or second best and the throne was empty. Until he does, Lennox remains the last true champ. Wlad has his fool's gold in the form of idiotic belts but he has yet to fight the number one contender. Until he does, whether it is his brother or not, he isn't what Louis was.

Look at Joe Calzaghe. By my model, he did not become the true champion until he defeated Kessler at the end of 2007. Kessler was the second best for 2 1/2 years before Joe finally fought him. Was Joe better than Kessler in 2005? He was in theory alone. But the last time I checked, this isn't a "virtual" sport.

Now, the Klitschko brothers insist on behaving unnaturally. They listen to mommy and refuse to fight each other. Because they behave like no pair of brothers I ever met in my life, then the best thing that we can hope for is that someone comes along and beats Vitali, becomes the number one guy, and fights Wlad.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:40 PM   #23
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louis’s Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

Wlads embarassing losses(the latter two) and level of opposition(unless hte division gets better and he keeps winning well) should keep him out of a top 5, regardless of title defence number imo.Unless you think he's one of the very best head to head\ at peak and that plays a big part in your criteria(as it does with mine nowadays).
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:45 PM   #24
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louis’s Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

I mostly agree with you Stonehands. I can see crowning a champ on a #1 versus #3 basis if there was some really weird shit going on and I can see why Ring has that caveat - but I say maybe, maybe two brothers being #1 and #2 is reason enough.

However, the distance in quality between a near-washed-up Chagaev and the #2 makes me uncomfortable with that.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:49 PM   #25
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89 View Post
Unification means nothing. He'll have 4 belts to hold his pants up, whoop-de-doo. 4 x [bullsh*t] = [bullsh*t].

What's with all this affirmative action for champions? Is boxing that desperate? A fighter fights -he should never be "appointed" champion just because most think he's the best out there.

How can a champion become the real thing without fighting the number one guy if he's number two or the the number two guy if he's number one?

Wlad has yet to faced the next best when he was the best or second best and the throne was empty. Until he does, Lennox remains the last true champ. Wlad has his fool's gold in the form of idiotic belts but he has yet to fight the number one contender. Until he does, whether it is his brother or not, he isn't what Louis was.

Look at Joe Calzaghe. By my model, he did not become the true champion until he defeated Kessler at the end of 2007. Kessler was the second best for 2 1/2 years before Joe finally fought him. Was Joe better than Kessler in 2005? He was in theory alone. But the last time I checked, this isn't a "virtual" sport.

Now, the Klitschko brothers insist on behaving unnaturally. They listen to mommy and refuse to fight each other. Because they behave like no pair of brothers I ever met in my life, then the best thing that we can hope for is that someone comes along and beats Vitali, becomes the number one guy, and fights Wlad.
When Vitali is on record as saying "I don't want to fight Wlad" and saying shit like "I don't dispute his championship claim" Then you either have to accpet that Wlad is doing all he can by repeatedly fighting the number 3 guy (iggy, chagaev, haye) or you relegate Vitali in the rankings.

Either way it's semantics.

Even if it wasn't, what does it matter? Wlad has been number one sicne 06. In that period he's made 11 defences. He's still 14 away from Louis, if he breaks it, then brilliant, we are witnessing a great fighter dominate a division.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:50 PM   #26
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I mostly agree with you Stonehands. I can see crowning a champ on a #1 versus #3 basis if there was some really weird shit going on and I can see why Ring has that caveat - but I say maybe, maybe two brothers being #1 and #2 is reason enough.

However, the distance in quality between a near-washed-up Chagaev and the #2 makes me uncomfortable with that.

that's a hindsight viewpoint though. Chagaev was well deserving of his number 3 spot at the time of the fight.
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:55 PM   #27
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

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Originally Posted by lora View Post
Wlads embarassing losses(the latter two) and level of opposition(unless hte division gets better and he keeps winning well) should keep him out of a top 5, regardless of title defence number imo.Unless you think he's one of the very best head to head\ at peak and that plays a big part in your criteria(as it does with mine nowadays).
Many ATG HW fighters have embarassing losses (e.g. - Holmes v. Spinks 1 & 2, Ali with his controversial decisions over Doug Jones and Jimmy Young, Tyson v. Douglas, Lewis v. Rahman/McCall, Frazier v. Foreman) and subpar opponents at times (e.g. - "Bum of the Month", Tyson's opponents in the 80's).

Title defenses is as consistent as you can get. It exhibits fighting the best opponents available (i.e. - at the championship level).
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Old 03-18-2012, 01:59 PM   #28
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louis’s Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

He is not going to break it with 2 or 3 fights a year.

Louis build that record up with 5 or 6 fights a year and once in a while did the 7 defenses in a year. Wlad has the talent edge over his era to do it, but he is not out there faceing 5 guys a year to break it.
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:01 PM   #29
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

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Originally Posted by brb View Post
Many ATG HW fighters have embarassing losses (e.g. - Holmes v. Spinks 1 & 2, Ali with his controversial decisions over Doug Jones and Jimmy Young, Tyson v. Douglas, Lewis v. Rahman/McCall, Frazier v. Foreman) and subpar opponents at times (e.g. - "Bum of the Month", Tyson's opponents in the 80's).

Title defenses is as consistent as you can get. It exhibits fighting the best opponents available (i.e. - at the championship level).
Exactly. Wlad isn't the only heavyweight hall of famer with embarassing loses.

With that said, I don't think he will break Louis' record. In my book, he needs 15 more title defenses to do it. Time won't allow it. We are in another context.
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:12 PM   #30
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Default Re: Can Wlad Break Joe Louisís Record Of 25 Title Defences? Manny Steward says he ca

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that's a hindsight viewpoint though. Chagaev was well deserving of his number 3 spot at the time of the fight.
Nah friend, not for those of us following him.

He never came back from injury/illness properly and that was apparent. He gassed and failed to take out Skelton despite the opportunity and Skelton was taken out by Rogan (!) a few months later as you'll remember.

Then against Drummond he looked poor again, and didn't get the rounds I felt he needed. He never reclaimed his timing which was a bit problem for him with his style, and he never really reclaimed his stamina. I kind of hoped that he'd have a dynamite camp against Wlad like he did against Valuev but it looks to me like he wasn't that much better. He was totally dominated so it's hard to say, but he didn't look like himself before or after that fight.
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