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Old 03-20-2012, 01:09 PM   #31
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Janitor,

realistically, who should he have fought? I've heard this so many times. A lot of fights didn't come off for various reasons. The only name that should have been there really, was Dariusz. The fight could never get made, Roy wouldn't go to Germany (why should he have? being the p4p no.1?) and Dariusz could never agree to terms to come to the U.S.

This has been discussed before in a previous thread. This always gets thrown at Roy, but who should he have fought in your opinion? Calzaghe's name always gets thrown around, aswell as Benn and Eubanks etc. Joe was a nobody outside of the U.K. when Roy was at the top of his game. Roy wanted the Benn fight, but Don King wanted a three fight option on him. Eubank openly admitted that he never chased the big fights in the U.S. and was happy defending his belt at home on Sky.

Above are just three examples. So who in your opinion did he chose not to fight, who would added to his legacy? We know Collins etc wanted to fight him, but that woudn't have addd to his legacy.

Regards, Loudon.
Well Bob Fitzsimmons fought everybody worth fighting in his era, up to and including Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson.

Therfore if he is the mark you want to beat, then it is not enough to go after the best middleweights, supermiddleweights and light heavyweights.

You have to go after the top heavyweights as well.

It might sound harsh, but that is where the bar has been set.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:14 PM   #32
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

Loudon, that's a long and interesting post. Thanks for making the effort.

On Benn, I agree. I remember them calling one another out. I agree that Jones would have fought the fight but didn't want King.

On Toney, I disagree. I remember Toney calling Jones out for a rematch at the time and it's documented in Dark Trade that he was more than interested. Indeed, he was still shouting about it as late as 09. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Collins: Not a big one, but he was certainly better/more worthy than most of the opponents he fought when he was "on tour". It does no harm to have names of tough types like this in your W column if you're fighting part-time boxers.

Hopkins: Kind of sums up Jones's resume really. Hopkins turned into one of history's great fighters after Roy beat him. To meet him and beat him again Roy had to agree to 50%. He wouldn't do it. As you point out, he was the star out of the two at that time, so this was probably fair enough, BUT, if you want to have the resume you have to make these compromises. That's the way the sport is. As Ring magazine put it this month, only the fighters stop the fights being made. If Roy had compromised on money and promotion, he could have had Hopkins x2, Benn and Toney x2 on his resume right now. That would make a big difference.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:16 PM   #33
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Well Bob Fitzsimmons fought everybody worth fighting in his era, up to and including Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson.

Therfore if he is the mark you want to beat, then it is not enough to go after the best middleweights, supermiddleweights and light heavyweights.

You have to go after the top heavyweights as well.

It might sound harsh, but that is where the bar has been set.
Going after the top heavies and getting KTFO 3 times would have helped Roy's legacy?
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:22 PM   #34
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Going after the top heavies and getting KTFO 3 times would have helped Roy's legacy?
Quite frankly, yes.

It would have been a lot less damaging than getting starched by Antonio Tarver, and if he had made the fights competitive he would have been given credit for it.

Furthermore, there were some name heavyweights around, who were ready to be taken.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:26 PM   #35
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

Of course Roy wins this, he shouldn´t fool around to long though or he might get caught by something heavy.

Anyway, he´s no way anywear near Bob greatness-wise.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:38 PM   #36
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

lufcrazy,

Hi mate, I agree, but as discussed they were other factors.

Jackson, that would have been a great fight, but Roy was a baby when Julian was in his prime. The window of opportunity was too small. But I agree that would have been a great fight. I remember watching Roy demolish Thomas Tate in a few rounds, after he'd fought for 12 rounds against Jackson though. Not that, that would have had any bearing on what would have happened if Roy had've fought Julian though.

G-Man, Roy grew up around him, and had a lot of respect for him. I think if it wasn't for the tragedy with Nigel, they would have fought at some point. I also think that Gerald would have moved up to 175 eventually.

Benn, I've discussed in my other post with McGrain.

Dariusz, A shame that fight could never get made. Roy had 3 of the major belts and Dariusz had the other one. You couldn't have expected Roy to have gone to Germany at that point, and Dariusz could never agree to come to the U.S. and seemed happy to defend his title in Germany. This is the stick that Roy constantly gets beaten with, But the blame for the fight not coming off, can't be thrown just at Roy's door.

Holyfield, Roy's advisor Murad Muhammad had talks with Evander and his team, just prior to Evander's third fight with Ruiz. Roy had great respect for him and wanted the fight for a long time. Roy Snr was always the stumbling block, and he talked Roy out of it a few times aswell as blocking him fighting Buster Douglas in the late nineties. But in 2002 Roy asked Murad to get him the fight. Everything was agreed upon verbally and Evander went into the fight with Ruiz.

Evander lost to Ruiz and Roy had a decision to make. Evander's offer was still open, but he thought that he wouldn't get any credit for fighting Evander at that point. So he turned down Evander and persued a fight with Ruiz who was the WBA Champion. There is a myth that Roy handpicked John Ruiz. But he didn't, and if Holyfield had've beaten Ruiz, Roy would have fough Evander Holyfield.

After the Ruiz fight, Roy desperately wanted a fight with Tyson. Roy had always been a huge fan of Mike's and the pair met on a few occasions. Murad tried to make the fight with Shelly finkle, but they had a contractual dispute with Showtime and the fight couldn't get made. I think Mike was finished at that point, and Roy could have beaten him aswell as Holyfield.

But as I say, you can't fight everyone. If he'd have beaten Benn, Collins, Eubank, Calzaghe earlier, but hadn't have fought Hopkins and Toney, we'd be probably having a debate on here, as to why he didn't face them, and what had've happened if he had've done.

Regards, Loudon.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:44 PM   #37
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Well Bob Fitzsimmons fought everybody worth fighting in his era, up to and including Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson.

Therfore if he is the mark you want to beat, then it is not enough to go after the best middleweights, supermiddleweights and light heavyweights.

You have to go after the top heavyweights as well.

It might sound harsh, but that is where the bar has been set.
Once upon a time a caveman was the best scientist in the world due to inventing a spear. He still doesn't rate over Einstein.

Fitzimmons would get beat by Carl Froch today
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
lufcrazy,

Hi mate, I agree, but as discussed they were other factors.

Jackson, that would have been a great fight, but Roy was a baby when Julian was in his prime. The window of opportunity was too small. But I agree that would have been a great fight. I remember watching Roy demolish Thomas Tate in a few rounds, after he'd fought for 12 rounds against Jackson though. Not that, that would have had any bearing on what would have happened if Roy had've fought Julian though.

G-Man, Roy grew up around him, and had a lot of respect for him. I think if it wasn't for the tragedy with Nigel, they would have fought at some point. I also think that Gerald would have moved up to 175 eventually.

Benn, I've discussed in my other post with McGrain.

Dariusz, A shame that fight could never get made. Roy had 3 of the major belts and Dariusz had the other one. You couldn't have expected Roy to have gone to Germany at that point, and Dariusz could never agree to come to the U.S. and seemed happy to defend his title in Germany. This is the stick that Roy constantly gets beaten with, But the blame for the fight not coming off, can't be thrown just at Roy's door.

Holyfield, Roy's advisor Murad Muhammad had talks with Evander and his team, just prior to Evander's third fight with Ruiz. Roy had great respect for him and wanted the fight for a long time. Roy Snr was always the stumbling block, and he talked Roy out of it a few times aswell as blocking him fighting Buster Douglas in the late nineties. But in 2002 Roy asked Murad to get him the fight. Everything was agreed upon verbally and Evander went into the fight with Ruiz.

Evander lost to Ruiz and Roy had a decision to make. Evander's offer was still open, but he thought that he wouldn't get any credit for fighting Evander at that point. So he turned down Evander and persued a fight with Ruiz who was the WBA Champion. There is a myth that Roy handpicked John Ruiz. But he didn't, and if Holyfield had've beaten Ruiz, Roy would have fough Evander Holyfield.

After the Ruiz fight, Roy desperately wanted a fight with Tyson. Roy had always been a huge fan of Mike's and the pair met on a few occasions. Murad tried to make the fight with Shelly finkle, but they had a contractual dispute with Showtime and the fight couldn't get made. I think Mike was finished at that point, and Roy could have beaten him aswell as Holyfield.

But as I say, you can't fight everyone. If he'd have beaten Benn, Collins, Eubank, Calzaghe earlier, but hadn't have fought Hopkins and Toney, we'd be probably having a debate on here, as to why he didn't face them, and what had've happened if he had've done.

Regards, Loudon.
He was a young mw but I think he'd have beaten both.

After beating ruiz he'd have been better staying at hw cherry picking legends imo.

I'm not assigning blame. I'm suggesting they'd be improvements to his resume.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:54 PM   #39
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Quite frankly, yes.

It would have been a lot less damaging than getting starched by Antonio Tarver, and if he had made the fights competitive he would have been given credit for it.

Furthermore, there were some name heavyweights around, who were ready to be taken.
Unfortunately, by the 2000's, they had invented real heavyweights. Roy and his dad were too smart to hang out in that division too long.

By the by, Ruiz beats any and every version of Fitz, also.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:56 PM   #40
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Once upon a time a caveman was the best scientist in the world due to inventing a spear. He still doesn't rate over Einstein.
You know, I don't know about that.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:01 PM   #41
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

Janitor,

Hi mate, good post and some good points. But the two era's are Worlds apart. There was only one Champion per division when Fitz fought, and there wasn't as many politics as what they are today. I think it's totally unfair to even compare the two era's.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:01 PM   #42
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

People like to compare fighters that fought in different eras of boxing,but the reality is no one knows how old school boxers,and I mean really old School like Jeffries,Corbett,Kid Moccoy,Tom Sharkey,Bob Fitszimmons,Peter Maher,Mexican Pete Everret,Peter Jackson,Jack Johnson,Sam Langford and my favorite Tommy Burns, would do today,they probably(im saying PROBABLY not CERTAINLY) wouldn't do very well because the fights were slow-paced and at that time 1890-1910 techniques were a bit rudimentary. But it really is difficult to tell how these guys would do without any clear footage.except from Johnson.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:08 PM   #43
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Unfortunately, by the 2000's, they had invented real heavyweights.
Well Jeffries was as big as Hasim Ramhan or Ray Mercer, and Fitzsimmons fought him twice. Your bigotry against fighters of this era, based on the size issue, is so strong that you wont even give them credit when they do fight somebody big.

Quote:
Roy and his dad were too smart to hang out in that division too long.
Jones vacated the belt because he heard that Vitally Klitschko might be his mandatory. Chris Byrd for contrast, decided to risk fighting Vitally Klitschko, and found a way to beat him.

It still comes down to the career choices that you make.

In hindsight, I think it is obvious that Jones should have jumped on a couple of the ageing heavyweight names, before somebody else exposed how shot they were.

Quote:
By the by, Ruiz beats any and every version of Fitz, also.
This is impossible to prove one way or the other.

What we can prove, is that Fitzsimmons cleaned out all the top heavyweights of his era bar Jeffries, while Jones chose to take an easier path.

The rest is history, and history has made its judgment on both men.

Last edited by janitor; 03-20-2012 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:26 PM   #44
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

There's a very good case allot of these men avoided Jones, some have admitted to it. Holyfield admitted ontheropes to turning down 25million to face Roy Jones after Jones beat Holyfield, Jones also pursued a fight with Tyson. Both Lilles and Hopkins turning down a career high 1 million to face RJJ in '96:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAP2JdvnDkY[/ame]


[ame]www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjvBqSDJJoA&feature=related[/ame]

Steve Collins was offered US$3million to fight Jones but wanted more

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Assigning absolutely no blame here, but imo the following would have improved his legacy:

Mw: jackson, mcclelland

Smw: benn

Lhw: dm.

Chances are he could have also beaten tyson and holyfield at hw as well instead of dropping back to lhw.

The guy was such a phenomenal talent. Those 4 would have made a fair difference imo. They wouldn't have been his best 4 victories but they'd have been a great addition to his already great resume.
Jackson/McClellan - McClellan was DKP, was Jackson too, hard to make, both have punchers chances no doubt. Both have defences that Roy would have a field day with

SMW - Benn/Eubank - Eubank has admitted he'd only fight Jones if Jones was a mandatory. Benn - both wanted it, DKP wanted Jones to sign away his career

Liles - bigger fight

Darius - both made plenty of cash and wanted more money than anyone was prepared to give them. Darius was happy fighting in Germany against competition inferior to that of Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I think Collins would indeed have added to his legacy. I think Benn and Eubank would have too, and certainly would have calmed the people who make claims about his never having met great punchers. I also think rematches with Hopkins and Toney enhance his legacy, and a couple more fights at HW unquestionably would have.

It's funny. Now Jones is utterly washed up he'll fight anyone. When he was in his prime, he drove a hard bargain. The frustration concerning his resume isn't exclusively an excuse to run him down in my opinion. Many people who think he was wonderful feel frustrated because his talent was up there and his resume really isn't - but it could have been.
I think McClellan, Jackson, Darius and Lilles are bigger losses than Collins. I don't think HBO wanted Collins either from what I've read.

Toney threw away his chance of a rematch by losing the decisions to Griffin/Thadzi

Don King demanded Jones accept a long term contract, probably on bad terms. Jones proposed each fighter get 10million to make the fight on a 1 fight basis. Here's an article

NIGEL Benn is sacrificing pounds 3million and a chance to be the true super-middleweight champion of the world.

On offer is a fight with America's fabulous Roy Jones, who spectacularly stopped Merqui Sosa of the Dominican Republic inside two rounds at Madison Square Garden, New York, on Friday night.
And not even Benn will dispute Roy's post-fight boast, after throwing 20 unanswered punches: "Tonight I showed who is the best fighter in the world, pound for pound."
Greg Fritz, of Jones' management team, accuses: "Benn and his promoter, Frank ******, are sitting on their butts. They are letting slip the match the world wants to see."
Deal
Fritz claims the stalemate is due to the English camp's liaison with Don King.
"King demands options on Roy if he should beat Nigel," explains Greg. "We will never agree to that.
"Fair's fair - we want no piece of Benn. Why can't there be a straight deal with no strings?
"The pounds 3million purse is guaranteed. If Nigel can walk away from it, he's a very rich and lucky man."
The American allegations anger ******. "I haven't received a single call from Jones or his people," he stresses. "How can they say what Nigel, Don or myself want?
"They talk about a meeting without even checking we're available. It's totally unprofessional. They are freezing Jones out of the world picture.
"The truth is that Jones needs Nigel to make decent money. He earns buttons compared with Benn and Steve Collins."
Jones comes to London next Sunday for talks about a basketball career with London Towers. He already plays minor league in Florida.
But Roy still longs to mix it with Benn. From his Pensacola estate, he confirms: "I think a lot about Benn. He's the one fighter out there who motivates me.
"If I box again, I want it to be with Benn."
Fritz insists: "There will be a meeting with ****** and Benn while we are in England. But frankly, we are not hopeful.
"As long as King seeks to influence Roy's future, there's nothing more to say."
Benn's admiration for Jones is unstinting. "I don't mind being rated second to him," he says. "I have so much respect."
Yet the Dark Destroyer adds with menace: "If the fight happens, Jones will be tested as never before. We'll see if he can take it, as well as dish it out!"
Jones' passion for basketball would make Benn's job easier. The American has just been diagnosed as having chronic knee trouble, brought on by daily twisting and jumping.
Sparring partners report Roy has cut back on running, and even limps in the ring.
That's why Benn is suddenly an attractive - and maybe final - payday

Jones had every intention to fight Benn but King was obstacle !! I don't know about those figures stated before but at the end of the day it was Kings involevement even ****** recognized that ..Make sure you post all the facts before you say someone has ducked someone or before you uses someone else post!
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:26 PM   #45
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Janitor,

Hi mate, good post and some good points. But the two era's are Worlds apart. There was only one Champion per division when Fitz fought, and there wasn't as many politics as what they are today. I think it's totally unfair to even compare the two era's.
It is one of the ironies of Jones's career, that he held so many titles over so many divisions, but arguably never established lineage in any of them.

In most respects having a single champion makes things harder for a prospective challenger, but for a belt collector like Jones, it might force the lineage within his sphere of influence.
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