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Old 03-20-2012, 01:34 PM   #46
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

[quote=janitor;12377557]
Quote:
Well Jeffries was as big as Hasim Ramhan or Ray Mercer, and Fitzsimmons fought him twice. Your bigotry against fighters of this era, based on the size issue, is so strong that you wont even give them credit when they do fight somebody big. .
Ruiz > Jeffries
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:34 PM   #47
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

McGrain,

Thanks for the reply, I think Toney calling out Roy was just his pride talking. I don't think he ever seriously wanted it. He never publicly announced it in any interview that I've seen. I've read many interviews with James over the years, and you never know which side of him is going to come across. I've heard him respect Roy and congratulate him on the win, and then I've heard him badmouth him and say, he ran from me all night etc in other interviews. I think it was just bravado and pride talking about a rematch.

In 2009 what would have been the point anyway? Roy's career ended in Sept 2004 after Glencoffe Johnson knocked him out. I've heard James many times say over the last 3 years, that Roy is done and should retire. But I think if Jame's had've really wanted a rematch, I think he would have mentioned it post fight in 94.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just don't think he meant it.

Going back to Hopkins, you have to put yourself in Roy's shoes. He didn't like Hopkins, and there was no way he was going to agree 50/50 when he'd already gotten a victory over him. There's no way Hopkins would have agreed to it, if the roles had been reversed. At the start of the interview, Bernard says, "Roy can't expect more money after the tourament is over!" That was a ridiculous thing to say. Roy had the win and was Pound for Pound No.1. If I was in Roy's shoes, I'd have done the same.

Roy would have had to have come down in weight to fight a guy that he's already beaten. 50/50 was never going to happen. The fairest thing to do, was to do what they did in their eventual rematch in 2010. 60 to the winner, 40 to the loser. I definately blame Hopkins for that fight not coming off. He told everyone in 2002, that he desperately wanted the fight, but Roy wouldn't fight. But if he wanted the fight as much as what he claimed, he'd have agreed to let Roy have the majority share.

I wish he'd have done what your suggesting, but again, you have to try and put yourself in his shoes and see things from his perspective. The Benn fight should definately have been made. Don King and both fighters would have made a lot of money. But King wanted the 3 fight contract with Roy. I don't blame Roy for not wanting to sign it. King could have made a lot of money, and then approached Roy after to make another fight. But he wouldn't consider it, and Roy didn't want those shackles around him.


regards, Loudon.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:45 PM   #48
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

LSDarth, I agree 100%

Power, a great post.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:46 PM   #49
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

I agree that Jones doesn't have to take 50% to fight Hopkins,and I agree Jones doesn't have to take King for Benn - i'm not blaming him.

But, for the most part, it's the fighters that control their destinies and their legacies. Whatever the reasons, Jones not fighting these fights (and I would include Toney for reasons stated) affects his legacy, which is a shame, we can all agree.
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:48 PM   #50
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Ruiz > Jeffries
Who is better between Ruiz or J. Jeffries is possibly not the point I believe.....Because Jeffries beat Fitz twice...so, doesn´t count to me when I judge Bobby´s resume.....in the end of the day that were two defeats by KO...

Ruiz was a big enough HW.....and Roy beat him clearly in a great performance even being a former MW !

Between the real top fighters of the era, who was the bigger one that Fitz beat ??

Gus Ruhlin with 195 lbs or something ? There are some obscure fighters bigger, but they probably weren´t a real threat even being that big.....

Just asking to everyone, really....I´m not an expert on Fitz....actually this is probably the first time I´m discussing him here, perhaps.....
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:56 PM   #51
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

Janitor,

Roy vacated his belt because he couldn't get a Tyson fight, and Tarver was constantly in his ear trying to goad him into a fight. He even crashed the Ruiz press conference.

Roy never established Lineage in them? So what? I'm sure you know all the circumstances involved.

You're trying to compare Roy's career with Bob's, and as i've said, it's completely unfair. They were different era's etc. How would Fitz have faired against Toney etc? How do we know?

Also, Byrd showed a way to beat Vitali? You can't be serious? Vitali had to pull out through a shoulder injury. There was no way Byrd was going to win that fight.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:04 PM   #52
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

McGrain,

I agree mate 100% It's a real shame. Maybe Roy looks back on certain things with great regret? I just wish that Tarver had've beaten Harding the first time, and had've fought Roy before Ruiz. Then Roy could have stayed at heavy for a few fights and then not had to rush back and lose those 20 pounds of muscle (that killed his career) in 8 months. That was a ridiculous thing to do. But hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Tarver really did get under Roy's skin, and forced him to come back. Who knows what had've happened if Roy hadn't have come back down like he did? The Glencoffe Johnson fight was horrible to watch. He'd lost his speed, legs, reflexes, everything. It was like watching a robot. Can you imagine Glen Johnson knocking out Roy, pre Ruiz? It would never have happened.

Thanks for the great debate.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:14 PM   #53
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Once upon a time a caveman was the best scientist in the world due to inventing a spear. He still doesn't rate over Einstein.
No, But Isac Newton and Robert Hooke still rate over Eienstein.

Quote:
Fitzimmons would get beat by Carl Froch today
Prove it.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:21 PM   #54
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

Loudon,

I think that Roy regrets not picking up those checks now. I'm no expert, but i'm betting four fights with King and 50% of what he'd have picked up against Hopkins is cash he could use right now...it's a shame to see him in this type of trouble.

Cheers.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:21 PM   #55
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

Fitzsimmons would murder Froch. He's to open to beat a puncher of Fitz's calibre. A more interesting argument is if Fitz could get to Martinez.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:26 PM   #56
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post

Well Jeffries was as big as Hasim Ramhan or Ray Mercer, and Fitzsimmons fought him twice. Your bigotry against fighters of this era, based on the size issue, is so strong that you wont even give them credit when they do fight somebody big.
Jeffries was an amateurish heavy who was reluctant to, or incapable of, using his great physical assets to his benefit with any efficacy. And... given these shortcomings, he still KO'd Fitz twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post

What we can prove, is that Fitzsimmons cleaned out all the top heavyweights of his era bar Jeffries, while Jones chose to take an easier path.

The rest is history, and history has made its judgment on both men.
I think our histories, and the respective judgements there from, differ quite a bit.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:33 PM   #57
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Originally Posted by Loudon View Post
Janitor,

Roy vacated his belt because he couldn't get a Tyson fight, and Tarver was constantly in his ear trying to goad him into a fight. He even crashed the Ruiz press conference.

Roy never established Lineage in them? So what? I'm sure you know all the circumstances involved.

You're trying to compare Roy's career with Bob's, and as i've said, it's completely unfair. They were different era's etc. How would Fitz have faired against Toney etc? How do we know?

Also, Byrd showed a way to beat Vitali? You can't be serious? Vitali had to pull out through a shoulder injury. There was no way Byrd was going to win that fight.
Not sure if that isn't an excuse, Byrd was walking Vitali down. Vitali is irrelevant anyway, he was fighting Lennox when Jones was still looking for a mega-money fight. Roy Jones and Lennox discussed fighting, Holyfield turned down big money, Lennox had the hard fight with Vitali and was either going to rematch him or retire

This is a few days before Lewis-Vitali:

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Lewis wants Roy Jones Jr. next
By Dan Rafael, USA TODAY
LOS ANGELES — Although heavyweight champion Lennox Lewis faces one of the biggest opponents of his career in Vitali Klitschko on Saturday night (HBO, 10 ET), a victory sets up a potential fall blockbuster with one of the smallest, Roy Jones Jr.
Although Lewis has Klitschko on his mind, he's also thinking about Jones and the mammoth pay-per-view dollars it would generate. His handlers have begun talks with Jones promoter Murad Muhammad for a historic bout that would pit the best heavyweight of the era with the best pound-for-pound fighter of the era in the sort of fantasy matchup normally reserved for barroom banter.

"When we first started talking about Roy fighting heavyweights, it was limited to him fighting the smaller guys like Chris Byrd," HBO's Kery Davis says. "No one ever contemplated him fighting someone as big and as talented as Lennox, which is why this is so fascinating. Not only would he fight a big guy, but he'd be fighting the best big guy."

What once would have been thought of as a ridiculous mismatch between the powerful 6-5, 256-pound Lewis and the speedy, 5-11, 190-poundish Jones can no longer be laughed at. Jones has moved from junior middleweight to heavyweight during a brilliant 15-year pro career, capping it off in March by winning the WBA heavyweight belt from John Ruiz.

"Roy is a serious fighter. I do not take him lightly with Lennox," says Lewis' trainer, Emanuel Steward. "He's been a winner all his life. He has the ego; I'm sure he's convinced that his speed would be a big asset."

Muhammad also is negotiating with Evander Holyfield for a fall fight. He said he met with Holyfield adviser Jim Thomas and promoter Don King on Wednesday, but the sides are not in agreement.

"Roy is very interested in fighting Lennox," Muhammad says. "We have Holyfield on the table, and we will keep talking. I want to be able to give Roy both offers, but the way it's going with Holyfield we are leaning toward Lennox Lewis. He creates more money, and Roy will go where the money is at."

Lewis is interested because he figures he'll be able to overwhelm a smaller opponent and make big money, too: "Roy is a remarkable boxer with tremendous talent, but he's coming up to my weight class and that would be a fatal mistake. For him to say he wants to be heavyweight champion, he has to forget about fighting those old men (Holyfield) who should basically be in retirement. He might as well come after the real champion, which is me."

Steward believes the money, probably $20 million-plus, and Jones' ego will push him toward Lewis.

"When I saw Roy Jones win the heavyweight championship, I said he's going to fight Lennox," Steward says. "I know Roy's ego. Once he tasted that money and loved hearing everyone holler 'heavyweight champ of the world,' it was intoxicating. He loves the money, he loves the limelight. Then someone says, 'Oh, you're just a baby champion. The real champ is Lennox Lewis.' Roy can't deal with that."

This was in March 2003 after the Ruiz win

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But after Vitali, Lewis says he prefers a Vitali rematch if he's to continue

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Jones wants Lewis or Tyson after Holyfield turns down Jones opting for Toney

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Jones calls Lewis 'a punk' after going back down to fight Tarver

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:41 PM   #58
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

Jones-Lewis probably would have been horrifying, but who would have missed it? And if Jones somehow pulled it off, he'd be in the p4p ATG top 10.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:52 PM   #59
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post

Jackson/McClellan - McClellan was DKP, was Jackson too, hard to make, both have punchers chances no doubt. Both have defences that Roy would have a field day with

SMW - Benn/Eubank - Eubank has admitted he'd only fight Jones if Jones was a mandatory. Benn - both wanted it, DKP wanted Jones to sign away his career

Liles - bigger fight

Darius - both made plenty of cash and wanted more money than anyone was prepared to give them. Darius was happy fighting in Germany against competition inferior to that of Jones


Liles would have been good also, good call.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:54 PM   #60
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Default Re: Roy Jones Jr vs Bob Fitzsimmons by Bert Sugar

Power,

Great stuff! Thanks for the links. I knew they's approached Lennox. What a fight that would have been. He knew his time was up though, after the Vitali fight. He didn't want a rematch for any amount of money. I would have loved to have seen Roy fight Lennox. I think Roy could have beaten him at that point of Lennox's career.
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