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Old 03-25-2012, 06:31 PM   #46
lufcrazy
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Quote:

None.

Which HW did Foreman beat to convince you that he performed well in a fight that went longer than ten rounds?



It dosnt work lioke that.

Which fighter did Frazier loose to ,to convince you that he could loose to a fighter like Foreman?

Which fighter did Foreman beat, to convince you that he belonged in the ring with Frazier?
I don't think it'll go ten rounds.

It does work like that. Frazier was rightly a huge favourite for that reason. George proved himself by pulling the upset.

Maybe in real life james would pull the upset, stranger things have happened. Foreman would rightly be a huge favourite based on all the evidence we have.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:01 PM   #47
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Maybe in real life james would pull the upset, stranger things have happened. Foreman would rightly be a huge favourite based on all the evidence we have.
Foremans resume is wall to wall mediocrity, interspersed with the best wins in the history of the division.

There is huge uncertainty when matching him against other ATGs.
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Old 03-25-2012, 07:37 PM   #48
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Foremans resume is wall to wall mediocrity, interspersed with the best wins in the history of the division.

There is huge uncertainty when matching him against other ATGs.
I agree. But put a gun to my head and i'll go with the man who smoked smoke.
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Old 03-26-2012, 03:55 AM   #49
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Foremans resume is wall to wall mediocrity, interspersed with the best wins in the history of the division.

There is huge uncertainty when matching him against other ATGs.
Then what about Jeffries resume? Of all the heavyweights commonly ranked in the top 20 his is definently the weakest. He outweighed all of the opponents he has wins over anywhere from 10-60 lbs added to this some of them were very old. The manner of alot of these wins were not all too convincing either, getting your face turned to mush for 8 straight rounds against a light heavy about to hit 40 doesn't say much to me. Do you envision Foreman taking this long to take the same man out? Would he be getting his faced smashed in for 8 rounds?

I agree Foreman's record is fairly padded when you analyse it but he has some great wins over quality opponents in both of his careers.
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Old 03-26-2012, 04:19 AM   #50
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Possibly quite a lot.

Durability

Stamina

Deffence

Footwork

Handspeed

Technical boxing ability

You might just have your answer right there!
1. Durability is unproven against the big men that Foreman faced

2.Stamina Could Jeffries go 12 rounds to a decision being competitive throughout with the world champion at the age of 42?

Could Jeffries go 12 rounds and ko the reigning 222lbs Champ at the age of 45 ?

Could Jeffries go 12 rds at the age of 47, making the fight chasing ,a man who weighed 227lbs? Jeffries stamina is based on two fights with 5'8" Sharkey who scaled 177lbs ,and 185lbs, and a 177lbs , 2 years retired Corbett who picked him to pieces before being caught after 23rds.

We know Jeffries could not mount a competitive fight at the age of 35, add another 10 years to that, and ponder his chances of koing a 6'2" 222lbs Heavyweight Champ


= Jury still out.

3. Defence. In his 27year old prime ,against a near 40years old ,2 years retired Fitz, Jeffries had his face smashed to pieces, his nose broke his eyes gashed into a bloody mask.Jeffries outweighed Fitz by a shocking 47lbs. Where was his defence there?
N. B. Jeffries had his nose broken three times.
Look at pictures of the two men after they retired. Jeffries looks like a gargoyle, Foreman is unmarked,and note that Jeffries had only 23 fights for a total of 215 ring rounds ,whilst Foreman had 81 fights for a total of 349 rounds. And further note that Foreman's opponents were real heavies , most of Jeffries adversaries were super middles/ lightheavy's/cruisers.No advantage.

4. Which fights of Jeffries demonstrate superior foot work?
Accounts of his fights show he took many rounds to catch up with boxers who were anywhere near prime.Please dont include a near 37 years old ,totally shot Corbett, whose prior results should exclude him for consideration here. Foreman was not fast afoot. but very effective at cutting the ring off, he used ring geometry very well. Toss up.

5.Handspeed ? Again no fight footage shows Jeffries to have an advantage in this department. Against Sharkey, he looks quite slow and methodical. No advantage.
6. Technical boxing ability? Jeffries did not possess a jab , he has no technique advantage over Foreman.

Now add height, reach, power ,all of which Foreman has in spades.


Yes I have my answer .
Unless Foreman was the defending champion , the fight wouldn't happen though, as this public statement by Jeffries, immediately after Reno clearly emphasises.

Defeated man insists he fought the best man he knew how Regrets however that colored man hold championship title SPECIAL TO THE POST-STANDARD* RENO, Nev., July 4.—
I



SPECIAL TO THE POST-STANDARD* RENO, Nev., July 4.—
I tried. That's all I ask credit for doing, -I was beaten fairly and squarely. I have no excuses to make. Let full credit be given Jack Johnson for his victory, He is a truly great fighter. I would have remained the retired and undefeated heavy weight champion of the world, but for the fact that the American public demanded of me that I try . to take away the championship from a black man, I don't regret the fact of my defeat so much as I do that it was a negro that beat me, thereby establishing himself as the best man in the world. I would rather have been defeated three times over by a man of my own race than being the means of placing a negro in this place. It was to tear him from this honor that I consented to fight.
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:44 AM   #51
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
1. Durability is unproven against the big men that Foreman faced

2.Stamina Could Jeffries go 12 rounds to a decision being competitive throughout with the world champion at the age of 42?

Could Jeffries go 12 rounds and ko the reigning 222lbs Champ at the age of 45 ?

Could Jeffries go 12 rds at the age of 47, making the fight chasing ,a man who weighed 227lbs? Jeffries stamina is based on two fights with 5'8" Sharkey who scaled 177lbs ,and 185lbs, and a 177lbs , 2 years retired Corbett who picked him to pieces before being caught after 23rds.

We know Jeffries could not mount a competitive fight at the age of 35, add another 10 years to that, and ponder his chances of koing a 6'2" 222lbs Heavyweight Champ


= Jury still out.

3. Defence. In his 27year old prime ,against a near 40years old ,2 years retired Fitz, Jeffries had his face smashed to pieces, his nose broke his eyes gashed into a bloody mask.Jeffries outweighed Fitz by a shocking 47lbs. Where was his defence there?
N. B. Jeffries had his nose broken three times.
Look at pictures of the two men after they retired. Jeffries looks like a gargoyle, Foreman is unmarked,and note that Jeffries had only 23 fights for a total of 215 ring rounds ,whilst Foreman had 81 fights for a total of 349 rounds. And further note that Foreman's opponents were real heavies , most of Jeffries adversaries were super middles/ lightheavy's/cruisers.No advantage.

4. Which fights of Jeffries demonstrate superior foot work?
Accounts of his fights show he took many rounds to catch up with boxers who were anywhere near prime.Please dont include a near 37 years old ,totally shot Corbett, whose prior results should exclude him for consideration here. Foreman was not fast afoot. but very effective at cutting the ring off, he used ring geometry very well. Toss up.

5.Handspeed ? Again no fight footage shows Jeffries to have an advantage in this department. Against Sharkey, he looks quite slow and methodical. No advantage.
6. Technical boxing ability? Jeffries did not possess a jab , he has no technique advantage over Foreman.

Now add height, reach, power ,all of which Foreman has in spades.


Yes I have my answer .
Unless Foreman was the defending champion , the fight wouldn't happen though, as this public statement by Jeffries, immediately after Reno clearly emphasises.

Defeated man insists he fought the best man he knew how Regrets however that colored man hold championship title SPECIAL TO THE POST-STANDARD* RENO, Nev., July 4.—
I



SPECIAL TO THE POST-STANDARD* RENO, Nev., July 4.—
I tried. That's all I ask credit for doing, -I was beaten fairly and squarely. I have no excuses to make. Let full credit be given Jack Johnson for his victory, He is a truly great fighter. I would have remained the retired and undefeated heavy weight champion of the world, but for the fact that the American public demanded of me that I try . to take away the championship from a black man, I don't regret the fact of my defeat so much as I do that it was a negro that beat me, thereby establishing himself as the best man in the world. I would rather have been defeated three times over by a man of my own race than being the means of placing a negro in this place. It was to tear him from this honor that I consented to fight.

Of Course Jeffries also said he would have beaten Johnson is he was younger. It is likely Fitzsimmons did something to his gloves in the re-match, which increased the damage sustained.. Either way, these fights prove something. Jeffries could take the best Fitz had to offer, and as an old man coaxed out of retirement, he showed no quit in him in the final rounds vs. Johnson. How hard did Fitz hit? Harder than Louis and Dempsey according to some.


Frazier was tailor made for Foreman, and Norton tended to freeze vs. punchers. Yet when Foreman was matched vs. slightly past his best Ali he was easily out boxed, and stopped. I felt Foreman lost pride and heart as the fight went on. Foreman was floored nearly taken out by Lyle, who for arguments sake didn't hit significantly harder than Jeffries. Indeed, Jimmy Young floored Foreman and beat him, and Young really wasn't that fast.
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:45 AM   #52
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

[quote=janitor;12423061]
Quote:

None.

Which HW did Foreman beat to convince you that he performed well in a fight that went longer than ten rounds?



It dosnt work lioke that.

Which fighter did Frazier loose to ,to convince you that he could loose to a fighter like Foreman?

Which fighter did Foreman beat, to convince you that he belonged in the ring with Frazier?
Frazier had never been in with anyone who hit remotely as hard as George.


As a near 40 years old, 47lbs lighter, coming out of 2 years retirement Ftiz smashed Jeff's face to bits for 8rds, in a fight that would have been halted today.Why is this particulalry relevant? Who says Jeffries is going to see the 10th rd?

As an aside, if Foreman fought in the leisurely style of Jeffries day, he would probably be able to go 50rds. He went 12 at the age of 47 against a 6'4" 227lbs contender.

Did Jeffries ever duplicate anything approaching that?
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Old 03-26-2012, 05:45 AM   #53
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by MadcapMaxie View Post
Then what about Jeffries resume? Of all the heavyweights commonly ranked in the top 20 his is definently the weakest. He outweighed all of the opponents he has wins over anywhere from 10-60 lbs added to this some of them were very old. The manner of alot of these wins were not all too convincing either, getting your face turned to mush for 8 straight rounds against a light heavy about to hit 40 doesn't say much to me. Do you envision Foreman taking this long to take the same man out? Would he be getting his faced smashed in for 8 rounds?

I agree Foreman's record is fairly padded when you analyse it but he has some great wins over quality opponents in both of his careers.
Welcome back SuzieQ.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:01 AM   #54
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

Jeffries had good skills, but his main modus operandi was to simply outgut and outlast the other man. He was not hard to find.
That's all fine and well facing much smaller men, but no attrition fighter that relied on out-manning the other guy I know of can beat George Foreman.

Ironially, Ali beat Foreman by relying on guts and heart (mainly) but Zaire was a unique set of circumstances, and Ali was far more wiley and capable than Big Jeff.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:02 AM   #55
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Absolutely. He would do great against today's middleweights, just like he did in 1900.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:19 AM   #56
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Of Course Jeffries also said he would have beaten Johnson is he was younger. It is likely Fitzsimmons did something to his gloves in the re-match, which increased the damage sustained.. Either way, these fights prove something. Jeffries could take the best Fitz had to offer, and as an old man coaxed out of retirement, he showed no quit in him in the final rounds vs. Johnson. How hard did Fitz hit? Harder than Louis and Dempsey according to some.


Frazier was tailor made for Foreman, and Norton tended to freeze vs. punchers. Yet when Foreman was matched vs. slightly past his best Ali he was easily out boxed, and stopped. I felt Foreman lost pride and heart as the fight went on. Foreman was floored nearly taken out by Lyle, who for arguments sake didn't hit significantly harder than Jeffries. Indeed, Jimmy Young floored Foreman and beat him, and Young really wasn't that fast.


Tommy Burns, who was ringside at Reno, felt that Johnson would have beaten any version of Jeffries and made a public statement to that effect, it should be noted that Burns disliked Johnson, and had bet a substantiaL amount on Jeffries to win


This assertion has been emphatically discredited. Jeffries walked over and carefully examined Fitz's hand wraps in the ring, immediately prior to the men gloving up. I posted this some time ago.
What these fights prove is that a near 40years old, 2 years retired ,172lbs man smashed Jeffries face to bits ,and was well in front, until he hands went on him, and he had nothing left to fight with.

Wonderful strategy on Jeffries part, offering his head as a target until Fitz's knuckles were smashed.
Now envisage a 25years old ,224lbs heavy duty banger, who could hit like few other men have ever been able to, landing with such impunity on Jeffries face.
The "oldman coaxed out of retirement," was the near 40 years old Fitz!

"Lyle did not his significantly harder than Jeffries?"
This is highly contentious. Put 167, and 172lbs Fitz, and 177lbs Corbett in with Lyle ,toss in 167lbs Choynski,and 177lbs Sharkey .

Does Sharkey go a total of 45rds with Lyle? Does Corbett go a total of 33rds?
Does Choynski go 20rds with Ron?

The Frazier whom Foreman used as a yo you ,would have been the best opponent Jeffries ever faced during his title reign, not to mention his heaviest, by some distance. Many, many of todays scribes would rate Frazier ,and Norton's chances extremely favourably against Jeffries. Foreman demolished them.

Jimmy Young, after being on the verge of being stopped, floored Foreman for a flash knockdown as a result of Foreman 's own impetus, having missed a punch he fell into Young's counter.
I am no fan of Young's, but he would probably have severely embarrassed Jeffries.
Foreman, even as an old mid- 40's heavy took flush shots from . Morrison, Briggs, Cooney , Moorer, Holyfield, without being dropped. His chin is far more proven that Jeffries.

The biggest punchers Jeffries faced were 167lbs Choynski, and 172lbs Fitz.

Having someone this big, strong, and hard hitting ,coming at him would be a very sobering exoperience for Jim jeffries ,imo


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When Jeffries was matched against clearly past their best boxers he got his ears boxed off.


Ali took a significant amount of heavy duty body punishment in his win over Foreman, be in no doubt about that.

Last edited by mcvey; 03-26-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:13 AM   #57
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
Of Course Jeffries also said he would have beaten Johnson is he was younger. It is likely Fitzsimmons did something to his gloves in the re-match, which increased the damage sustained.. Either way, these fights prove something. Jeffries could take the best Fitz had to offer, and as an old man coaxed out of retirement, he showed no quit in him in the final rounds vs. Johnson. How hard did Fitz hit? Harder than Louis and Dempsey according to some.


Frazier was tailor made for Foreman, and Norton tended to freeze vs. punchers. Yet when Foreman was matched vs. slightly past his best Ali he was easily out boxed, and stopped. I felt Foreman lost pride and heart as the fight went on. Foreman was floored nearly taken out by Lyle, who for arguments sake didn't hit significantly harder than Jeffries. Indeed, Jimmy Young floored Foreman and beat him, and Young really wasn't that fast.
Who?

Do you seriously rank 185lbs Dempsey and 200lbs Joe Louis as having comparable punching power to 220lbs George Foreman?

You say Frazier was tailor made for Foreman and i def. agree but i'd also say Foreman was tailor made for Ali. Losing to the greatest heavyweight in history? Sheeeeit you best hang the man.

As for Lyle not hitting significantly harder than Jeffries? Perhaps not "significantly" but i think he def. hit harder also looked alot better on film. Plus was bigger and heavier. Foreman said Lyle hit him harder than anybody.

Young floored Foreman for about a second and although he wasn't fast he was very good defensivley plus Foreman fought a silly fight and the heat was taking alot out of him. After the fight he had delusions of jesus christ and death ffs. running up and down screaming "hallelujah christ has risen"
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:44 AM   #58
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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And primary source evidence of Jeffries lifting the steer!
Please can you produce it?
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Old 03-26-2012, 09:51 AM   #59
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Handspeed is not difficult to believe.....possibly true....
Stamina is probably unquestionable......

Iīm not sure about footwork.....because IMO, Foreman had a good offensive footwork.....
Technical boxing ability is hard to say without more footage, and because technical ability is quite a subjective point also...

Anyway, no way this is a complete mismatch like Luf said.....
Pushing super middles, and lighheavies about in leisurely paced fights is not remotely the same as manhandling 6'3" 220lbs plus modern heavyweights in today's faster tempo bouts. Foreman proved his stamina when, as an old man he went the distance with the best heavies of the generation that succeeded his. It is very much questionable imo.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:00 AM   #60
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Pushing super middles, and lighheavies about in leisurely paced fights is not remotely the same as manhandling 6'3" 220lbs plus modern heavyweights in today's faster tempo bouts. Foreman proved his stamina when, as an old man he went the distance with the best heavies of the generation that succeeded his. It is very much questionable imo.
Nothing against Foremanīs stamina....although in his prime as a young man he wasnīt a guy with great stamina to me.....
But donīt you think Jeffries fighting 20 rounds many times, 25, 23....shows that his stamina was better ? More proven? I was thinking about that when said about unquestionable stamina....
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