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Old 03-26-2012, 12:21 PM   #61
mcvey
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by Vic-JofreBRASIL View Post
Nothing against Foremanīs stamina....although in his prime as a young man he wasnīt a guy with great stamina to me.....
But donīt you think Jeffries fighting 20 rounds many times, 25, 23....shows that his stamina was better ? More proven? I was thinking about that when said about unquestionable stamina....

Jeffries went 20rds with 167lbs Choynski.

Twenty rds with 177lbs Sharkey, 25 rds with 183lbs Sharkey. 23 rds with 177lbs Corbett.
Considering Jeffries had 63lbs on Choynski.

Thirtytwo , and thirty three pounds on Sharkey.

Thirty pounds on Corbett

I think this says more about their stamina than Jeffries .
I can't think that any of those men would be around sufficiently long enough to test Foreman's stamina, certainly not 25rds!

Can you picture a 177lbs, 5'8" Sharkey, who was a face first brawler, going 20 & 25rds with Foreman?

Say goodnight Mr Jeff.


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Old 03-26-2012, 01:03 PM   #62
edward morbius
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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We have photographic evidence of Foreman lifting that cow.

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If that is a "cow," I lifted some close to that big back on the farm when I was a youngun. We would have called this a calf.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:07 PM   #63
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Jeffries went 20rds with 167lbs Choynski.

Twenty rds with 177lbs Sharkey, 25 rds with 183lbs Sharkey. 23 rds with 177lbs Corbett.
Considering Jeffries had 63lbs on Choynski.

Thirtytwo , and thirty three pounds on Sharkey.

Thirty pounds on Corbett

I think this says more about their stamina than Jeffries .
I can't think that any of those men would be around sufficiently long enough to test Foreman's stamina, certainly not 25rds!
I agree, this says more about their stamina than Jeffries..but even so, itīs a good fact about Jeffries own stamina to me....


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Can you picture a 177lbs, 5'8" Sharkey, who was a face first brawler, going 20 & 25rds with Foreman?

Say goodnight Mr Jeff.


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No, definitely not......and actually thatīs why I pick Foreman here.....
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:12 PM   #64
edward morbius
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Pushing super middles, and lighheavies about in leisurely paced fights is not remotely the same as manhandling 6'3" 220lbs plus modern heavyweights in today's faster tempo bouts. Foreman proved his stamina when, as an old man he went the distance with the best heavies of the generation that succeeded his. It is very much questionable imo.

"Foreman proved his stamina when, as an old man he went the distance with the best heavies of the generation that succeeded his."

Who, besides Holyfield? Tyson? Lewis? Bowe? Holmes?

As for Holyfield, did Foreman actually go as far with him as Jeffries did with Johnson?

*My take is that Jeff will have to survive a hellacious beating in the early rounds. Could he? Hard to say as he didn't fight anyone at all like Foreman. If he can, which has to be considered at least a possiblity, I think Foreman could find himself in deep water as the rounds drag by.

I vote for Foreman as the more likely winner.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:34 PM   #65
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Then what about Jeffries resume? Of all the heavyweights commonly ranked in the top 20 his is definently the weakest. He outweighed all of the opponents he has wins over anywhere from 10-60 lbs added to this some of them were very old.
I think that the issue of whether your opponents are the best available is far more important than their average size/age.

In this respect, Jeffries resume is one of the strongest of all the top 20 all time heavyweights.

Quote:
The manner of alot of these wins were not all too convincing either, getting your face turned to mush for 8 straight rounds against a light heavy about to hit 40 doesn't say much to me.

Do you envision Foreman taking this long to take the same man out? Would he be getting his faced smashed in for 8 rounds?
Since Fitzsimmons ran in that fight, I imagine that Foreman probably would need rounds to put him away, unless he t****d him against the ropes early.

I also think that his face would cut just as easily as Jeffries if it were hit. His longer reach would make it harder for Fitzsimmons to get in range without being hit.

It is academic either way, because putting a common opponent away more quickly does not imply superiority. If Muhamad Ali needed more than eight rounds to catch Fitzsimmons, would that mean that Jeffries was better than he was?

Quote:
I agree Foreman's record is fairly padded when you ****yse it but he has some great wins over quality opponents in both of his careers.
This is beyond question, but I think that Jeffries best wins are being dismissed far to qickly here.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:36 PM   #66
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
If that is a "cow," I lifted some close to that big back on the farm when I was a youngun. We would have called this a calf.
I agree it seems small but it is a photo ,The Jeffries tale appears to have to be taken on trust.
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:42 PM   #67
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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Originally Posted by edward morbius View Post
"Foreman proved his stamina when, as an old man he went the distance with the best heavies of the generation that succeeded his."

Who, besides Holyfield? Tyson? Lewis? Bowe? Holmes?

As for Holyfield, did Foreman actually go as far with him as Jeffries did with Johnson?

*My take is that Jeff will have to survive a hellacious beating in the early rounds. Could he? Hard to say as he didn't fight anyone at all like Foreman. If he can, which has to be considered at least a possiblity, I think Foreman could find himself in deep water as the rounds drag by.

I vote for Foreman as the more likely winner.

Briggs, Morrison, Moorer, Coetzer,Stewart,Schultz all were bigger than anyone Jeffries ever fought .

Foreman at 42 went the 12 rds distance with Holyfield and was competitive throughout, never even sitting down between rounds.

Jeffries was not competitive against Johnson ,was carried for the latter rounds imo ,and was comprehensively thrashed, he was at 35, 7 years younger that Foreman.

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Old 03-26-2012, 01:53 PM   #68
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

[quote=janitor;12428651]
Quote:

I think that the issue of whether your opponents are the best available is far more important than their average size/age.

In this respect, Jeffries resume is one of the strongest of all the top 20 all time heavyweights.



Since Fitzsimmons ran in that fight, I imagine that Foreman probably would need rounds to put him away, unless he t****d him against the ropes early.

I also think that his face would cut just as easily as Jeffries if it were hit. His longer reach would make it harder for Fitzsimmons to get in range without being hit.

It is academic either way, because putting a common opponent away more quickly does not imply superiority. If Muhamad Ali needed more than eight rounds to catch Fitzsimmons, would that mean that Jeffries was better than he was?



This is beyond question, but I think that Jeffries best wins are being dismissed far to qickly here.
Whether they were the best available in no way alters the fact that they were light heavies , two of whom were coming out of 2 years retirement and were past their respective bests.
The other was a face first 5'8" swarmer whose best weight was between 175 and 183lbs. Yeah, he goes 25 rds with Foreman,and gives him life and death in the process.
I don't think so.

Foreman was extremely effective at cutting off the ring, do you envisage a 167lbs man who was 37 years old and had been out of the ring for 2 years, and was drunk the night before the fight,going 11 rounds with Foreman.
Personally, I don't accept that a 167lbs man in his prime, even one who had been active ,and taking care of himself, would be competitive with George Foreman.
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:59 PM   #69
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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mcvey #38
Foreman ,at the age of 42 went 12 fast rounds with prime Holyfield , without once sitting down ,did he develop stamina ,once he was past 40?
I do think that Forman had more stamina in his second career. Not great stamina -- he was pretty tired in the last few rounds of his fight with Holyfield -- but better than in his youth. Yes, this is unusual; but as Gil Clancy noted, the older Foreman had learned to relax in the ring.

-------

I have no idea whether Foreman and Jeffries were comparably strong, or whether one was stronger. Strength is the last to go, but it's possible that by 1910 Jeffries strength had departed with all else.

-------

If one guy gets beat up, George wins. If two guys get beat up, I'd favor Jeffries to prevail, though George might still pull it off.

-------

If I had to bet on '04 Jeffries vs '73/'74 Foreman, I'd pick George. If they came along at the same time, I don't know.
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Old 03-26-2012, 08:28 PM   #70
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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[quote=mcvey;12428805]
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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Whether they were the best available in no way alters the fact that they were light heavies , two of whom were coming out of 2 years retirement and were past their respective bests.
You are only a light heavyweight, if you are protected by a light heavyweight limit.

If you are fighting the heavyweights, and beating them, then you are entitled to call yourself a heavyweight.

Quote:
The other was a face first 5'8" swarmer whose best weight was between 175 and 183lbs. Yeah, he goes 25 rds with Foreman,and gives him life and death in the process.
I don't think so.
Would Foreman have fought a ranked contender with one arm out of action?

I respectfully don't think so.

Quote:
Foreman was extremely effective at cutting off the ring, do you envisage a 167lbs man who was 37 years old and had been out of the ring for 2 years, and was drunk the night before the fight,going 11 rounds with Foreman.
You are mixing up events surrounding the two Jeff/Fitz fights.

The second fight is the only one where Fitz achieved anything, and his preparations for that fight seem to have been imaculate. He fought on the run, and lasted eight rounds.

Given the issues that Foreman obviously had with defensive fighters, I think that this version of Fitzsimmons would have forced him to put in rounds.

Quote:
Personally, I don't accept that a 167lbs man in his prime, even one who had been active ,and taking care of himself, would be competitive with George Foreman.
So no 167lb man has ever lived who could do better than Peralta did against a pre prime Foreman?
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Old 03-27-2012, 05:06 AM   #71
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

[quote=janitor;12431959][quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post

You are only a light heavyweight, if you are protected by a light heavyweight limit.

If you are fighting the heavyweights, and beating them, then you are entitled to call yourself a heavyweight.



Would Foreman have fought a ranked contender with one arm out of action?

I respectfully don't think so.



You are mixing up events surrounding the two Jeff/Fitz fights.

The second fight is the only one where Fitz achieved anything, and his preparations for that fight seem to have been imaculate. He fought on the run, and lasted eight rounds.

Given the issues that Foreman obviously had with defensive fighters, I think that this version of Fitzsimmons would have forced him to put in rounds.



So no 167lb man has ever lived who could do better than Peralta did against a pre prime Foreman?
1. You can call yourself what you like , if you are between 167 & 172lbs ,you are by definition a light heavyweight ,and a small one at that.


2. William Brady who was in Jeffries corner , said Jeffries arm was ok for the fight. fight reports , and film footage ,show Jeffries used it without restriction. Sharkey himself fought with a broken knuckle . If Jeffries did carry an injury into that fight and thats why,[ iyo, ] Sharkey went the 25rds distance . Why didn't Jeffries stop him in their first fight when he was injury free?


3. Fitz preparations seems immaculate? This is quite frankly ridiculous he had not fought for two years, and was nearly 40 years old ,for christ sake !


4. Exactly so , no man scaling 167lbs, who ever lived, would go 20 rds with Foreman. Peralta scaled 197lbs for that fight, the referee gave him one round out of the ten.

Last time I looked 197lbs was 30lbs more than 167lbs.



Foreman had 15 fights when he fought Peralta ,for a total of 46 rounds of boxing. Peralta on the other hand was a veteran of 90 fights and god knows how many rounds , with only 2 losses, one on a cut eye against the world's champion way back in 1964 ,and one in 65 to Oscar Bonavena who took a decision off him.

In Peralta's last fight before losing to Foreman , he drew with Bonavena.
Oscar , 3 fights earlier had gone 15rds to a decision with Joe Frazier for the NYSAC heavyweight title.
Bonavena had been ranked in the top 10 for the previous 4 years ,and would be for the next
5 years.

Peralta was no 10 when Foreman beat him.
Peralta had been fighting as a heavyweight,[ ie above lightheavy limit ,]for 6 years.


Peralta finished with 116 fights, only being stopped 3 times.once by Mauro Mina way back in 1960, once by Willie Pastrano for the title [cut eye] and once by Foreman in their rematch.

Among those who failed to stop Peralta were Ron Lyle x2 ,[in fact Peralta, at 39, drew with Lyle, having lost a decision to him the previous year without being off his feet.]

Bonavena x2
Banger Jose Urtain, whom a 36 years old Peralta stopped .

Mentioning Peralta's name was a tactical error on your part imo!


Fitzsimmons was dropped by Corbett probably the lightest hitting of the heavyweight champs.



5.Fitz is described as a precision punch picker, I've never seen him referred to as a great defensive fighter , Corbett boxed his bald head off.


I'm mixing up nothing, I've ringside reports of both their fights.


Fitz did more than ",achieve something", he was skating the fight.


Below is a link to the second Jeffries /Fitz fight in which Fitz states he entered the ring with damaged hands having injured them sparring with Hank Griffin a few days previously.


You will note that the report states Fitz was totally in charge, and had outclassed the Champion . Bob Davis ,who was close friend of Fitz's, said that Fitz , his hands smashed ,walked to Jeffries in the 8th round dropped his guard and said," hit me Jeff". The report does indeed refer to Fitz walking to Jeffries, hands down and speaking to him.

I mention Fitz winning handily , because of persistent attempts to portray Jeffries as defensively adept .


"So badly was the champion punished it was a foregone conclusion Fitz must win"

"Bleeding from a number of gashes ,and apparently weakening"

"Clearly unable to cope with Fitz's superior skill".

This is a near 40 years old man, he is facing ,2 years retired,and one who weighed 172lbs.


"I consider myself lucky to have won when I did". Jim Jeffries

No man who is clever defensively, ships the kind of punishment Jeffries did.


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Old 03-27-2012, 06:30 AM   #72
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Default Re: Jim Jeffries v George Foreman

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I do think that Forman had more stamina in his second career. Not great stamina -- he was pretty tired in the last few rounds of his fight with Holyfield -- but better than in his youth. Yes, this is unusual; but as Gil Clancy noted, the older Foreman had learned to relax in the ring.
It's very possible that nervous energy robbed the 70's Foreman of some stamina, and as you say he had learned to relax in his second career. He was also a lot more selective about the punches he threw, the second time around.
(Logically though, I can't see how he could have increased it more than ten years past his best. 70's Foreman trained hard and came into the ring in shape.)

The funny thing about the Holyfield fight was that, in the closing rounds, it was Holyfield, Mr. body beautiful himself, who was holding on in the clinches.
Foreman was tired, but Holyfield was just as tired, and Foreman was 42.

Fighting a guy that much bigger than himself made Holyfield work all the harder, and that's one of the reasons why I am not overly impressed with tales of Jeffries' stamina.

As McVey says, it really says more about the likes of Tom Sharkey's stamina than it does about the Boilermaker's himself.
He had a decided weight advantage against his opponents, and to still have a little guy (comparatively) give him life and death is not really impressive to me, especially since he sometimes needed a war of attrition to beat them.

Add also Foreman's jab, a ramrod of a punch, which could quite conceivably make Jeff's face look far worse than even Fitz managed.
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Old 03-27-2012, 06:41 AM   #73
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mcvey says: Tommy Burns, who was ringside at Reno, felt that Johnson would have beaten any version of Jeffries and made a public statement to that effect, it should be noted that Burns disliked Johnson, and had bet a substantiaL amount on Jeffries to win

Wrong! Burns speaking on film ranks Jeffries ahead of Johnson, and picked him to beat Johnson in Reno. Of course the pick was made before Burns knew Jeffries could not come back. The Jeffries Burns saw in Reno was a shell of a man. Produce your evidence that Burns said Johnson beats any verison of Jeffries.


Quote:
This assertion has been emphatically discredited. Jeffries walked over and carefully examined Fitz's hand wraps in the ring, immediately prior to the men gloving up. I posted this some time ago.
What these fights prove is that a near 40years old, 2 years retired ,172lbs man smashed Jeffries face to bits ,and was well in front, until he hands went on him, and he had nothing left to fight with.

Fitz was a great older fighter and one who won key matches in his mid to late 30's. You might want to take note there is a story of Fitz tampering with his gloves. Indeed when Jeffries wanted to see them after the fight, Fitz quickly threw them into the crowd? Hmmm..... In addition there is a story Jeffries heard about the tampering just as he was entering the ring and was told by his trainer he could beat Fitz regardless. Fitz did not mark Jeffries up in the first match. Jeffries did not have his best outing in the re-match, but he still Ko'd his man in 8.



Quote:
The "oldman coaxed out of retirement," was the near 40 years old Fitz!

Wrong again! Fitz was active as an older fighter either in the ring or on tour, not retired for 6 years as Jeffries was. Keep making mistakes. I think I will count them from here. You on " 1 ", perhaps 2 unless you can produce something to back up in context what Burns said

Quote:

"Lyle did not his significantly harder than Jeffries?"
This is highly contentious. Put 167, and 172lbs Fitz, and 177lbs Corbett in with Lyle ,toss in 167lbs Choynski,and 177lbs Sharkey .

Bawhahahaa, Corbett was 188 pounds vs. Jeffries not 177 as you claim. Yet another mistake by you!!!! Also you keep telling us how hard Choynski hit. Lyle had a suspect him so Choynski could knock him out. Lyle also had trouble with good boxers. Jimmy Young beat him twice, So Corbett could do the same


Quote:
Does Sharkey go a total of 45rds with Lyle? Does Corbett go a total of 33rds?
Does Choynski go 20rds with Ron?

If Lyle had less than 10 fights as Jeffries did when he first meet Choynski and Sharkey, he losses BOTH matches. These were hall of fame fighters at their best when they fought a green Jeffries for the first time. Choynski was lucky to get a draw, but that is another thread. So far only 2 or 3 mistakes by you....


Quote:
The Frazier whom Foreman used as a yo you ,would have been the best opponent Jeffries ever faced during his title reign, not to mention his heaviest, by some distance.

BUZZZ!! That is mistake #3. Munroe was listed in Box rec at 215, and backed up by other papers. Frazier who was a little heavier than his ideal weight was 214 by Foreman. The heaviest by some distance? You are a moron! I have told you this point multiple times...



Quote:
Many, many of todays scribes would rate Frazier ,and Norton's chances extremely favourably against Jeffries. Foreman demolished them.

Today, maybe. In the 1970's, no. In fact most today would pick Jeffries over Norton even though most today have limited info on Jeffries prime.

Quote:
Jimmy Young, after being on the verge of being stopped, floored Foreman for a flash knockdown as a result of Foreman 's own impetus, having missed a punch he fell into Young's counter.

You can make all the excuses you want for Foreman. Young embarrassed him, and Lyle nearly knocked him out. Ali past his best had no trouble landing or out thinking Foreman.



Quote:
The biggest punchers Jeffries faced were 167lbs Choynski, and 172lbs Fitz.

I would say Sharkey based on results hit harder than Choynski, and others like Goddard, could hit as well. Fitz was a deadly puncher. Maybe not as hard as Foreman, but more accurate, and with better hand speed. Unlike Foreman; Sharkey, Choysnki, and Fitz carried their power into the later rounds, and did not gas out as quickly.



Quote:
When Jeffries was matched against clearly past their best boxers he got his ears boxed off.

The best boxer Jeffries fought was Corbett. Read a full fight report, and you will see the first match was pretty much even prior to the KO. In fact you might have Jeffries up on rounds a bit. In the re-match, when Jeffries skills were at there best, he beat an older Corbett at his own game.


To summarize, I count three mistakes by you.


1 ) Fitz being " coaxed " out of retirement to fight Jeffries in a re-match.


2 ) Corbett's listed weight not being close to 177, try 188! Corbett at age 33 in the first match was in great shape, not clearly past your prime as you ascertain.


3 ) Once again, Munroe's listed weight in News papers and now Box Rec was 215 pounds! Maybe after reading it 18th times you will get that right.


Now show me where Burns said Johnson beats any version of Jeffries in context by Burns, and you will only have the three mistakes here. If not, your tally on a short post stands at 4. I am not intersted in your spin reply. Just admit your mistakes, or if you can correct them.
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Old 03-27-2012, 07:16 PM   #74
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fists of fury

It's very possible that nervous energy robbed the 70's Foreman of some stamina, and as you say he had learned to relax in his second career. He was also a lot more selective about the punches he threw, the second time around.
(Logically though, I can't see how he could have increased it more than ten years past his best. 70's Foreman trained hard and came into the ring in shape.)

The funny thing about the Holyfield fight was that, in the closing rounds, it was Holyfield, Mr. body beautiful himself, who was holding on in the clinches.
Foreman was tired, but Holyfield was just as tired, and Foreman was 42.
Good comments, FoF.

Yes, Holyfield was tired, too. I actually had a longer comment that aknowledge Holyfield was tiring, too; but it misposted, so I had to improvise an 'economy sized' comment, as I was running out of computer time.
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Old 03-28-2012, 03:30 AM   #75
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[quote=janitor;12428651]
Quote:

I think that the issue of whether your opponents are the best available is far more important than their average size/age.

In this respect, Jeffries resume is one of the strongest of all the top 20 all time heavyweights.



Since Fitzsimmons ran in that fight, I imagine that Foreman probably would need rounds to put him away, unless he t****d him against the ropes early.

I also think that his face would cut just as easily as Jeffries if it were hit. His longer reach would make it harder for Fitzsimmons to get in range without being hit.

It is academic either way, because putting a common opponent away more quickly does not imply superiority. If Muhamad Ali needed more than eight rounds to catch Fitzsimmons, would that mean that Jeffries was better than he was?



This is beyond question, but I think that Jeffries best wins are being dismissed far to qickly here.
By this logic Rocky Marciano would have means to be ranked as the greatest heavyweight of all time as he beat everyone he faced and they were the best avaliable opposition at the time. I do take this into account but the QUALITY of opposition is FAR more important, and IMO a heavyweight going 20 rounds with men 20-60 lbs less who are older than the dirt i walk on in a time of small gloves and no mouthguards is not in the least bit impressive. If Wlad resume was filled with Mormeck-esque wins how would people rate him? Yet this is basically the same with Jeffries and people rate him so highly.

I havnt seen too much footage of Fitz but he didnt look like a runner and news reports dont describe him as one so if you got a resource for where you got that would be appreciated. Also Foreman charged forward at a fast pace and was excellent at cutting off the ring add to this he shoved guys around where he wanted and i dont think he'd have much trouble with lil ol' Fitzie.

Foreman was never a bleeder, infact i dont think i can name a single time he got cut in a fight so no he wouldnt bleed.

I'm not dismissing his wins but there is not much in the quality and type of wins he achieved that would lead me to believe he's even got a dog in this fight whereas Foreman does.
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