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Old 03-30-2012, 06:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

good question. as with most fighters. overrated by some, underrated by others. i don't like him too much on film but as slip, he was a good survivor
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Old 03-30-2012, 06:15 PM   #17
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Generally Bugner is underrated, especially by fans these days. Bugner was a legitimate contender during one of the most competitive eras in heavyweight history. He had strength, remarkable durability, hand and foot speed, very good defense, competent orthodox boxing skills, and an excellent left jab.

The downside to Bugner is that he was somewhat muscle bound, kind of tight. I think this is why he could never really let his hands go. What people regarded as his lack of motivation probably was, in reality, a lack of true fluidity and agility.

Too many fail to realize that Bugner was in his prime only between 1973 and 1977. Therefore, we should forget about rated him based on his Bodell or Shavers fights. That's just nonsense.

Concerning the Shavers affair, Bugner stood up to Earnie's bombs in impressive fashion. Almost anyone else would have taken the count under that kind of punishment. I think if not for the cut eye, Bugner probably would have come on later and gotten the better of Shavers.

Last edited by kenmore; 03-30-2012 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:36 PM   #18
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Overrated. Just look at his 72-76 efforts, in short, his prime. I don't care what he did once he, and others, reached that "I'm old now but I'm still effective" stage.
After his first scrap with Ali, I thought the young man was for real. Big guy, nice jab, very stiff chin, but?....NO LEFT TITTY. Fought only to survive against the elite. His Khala Lampur title bout with Ali in July 75 was...a...miserable joke.
As I've said before, Henry Cooper holds a UD against a prime Folley in 1958 and that alone trumps ANYTHING this underachiever accomplished.
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:41 PM   #19
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

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Originally Posted by jowcol View Post
As I've said before, Henry Cooper holds a UD against a prime Folley in 1958 and that alone trumps ANYTHING this underachiever accomplished.
Cooper's decision win over Folley is regarded by many as a blatant robbery. I think it's more than fair to say that the Bugner who lost to Ali and Frazier in 1973 was better than any version of Cooper.

Truth be told, I'd take the Kuala Lampur version of Bugner over any version of Cooper as well. Cooper just didn't have the size to cope with the mature Bugner, who was not only bigger, taller, and more mobile than Henry, but had a better jab as well.
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Old 03-30-2012, 07:53 PM   #20
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Joe was a transported Olympic discus thrower who's heart was probably not that of a fighters, an articulate man, he often stated his distaste of the business of hurting people. Pyhsically imposing, he looked the goods , and as someone unkindly said, "Joe looks like a Greek statue and uses the same movement". Joe was not hopeless and was most certainly defensevly durable, some of our greatest could not get him out of there and therein lays his legacy.
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Old 03-30-2012, 08:08 PM   #21
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenmore View Post
Cooper's decision win over Folley is regarded by many as a blatant robbery.
Thanks for responding kenmore. I know that Zora avenged the loss with a fairly quick knockout in their rematch in 1960 but the I've seen the first bout and IMO it certainly wasn't a 'blatant robbery'. I think Zora caught him with a shot in the 2nd and decked Henry (nothing major). But Cooper rose and for pretty much the rest of the fight banged with Zora and came on late, staying aggressive and not letting Folley get off. Certainly not a blatant robbery.
I have to still stand by my opinion of Bugner tho. "Never has so little been done by someone with so much talent"
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Old 03-30-2012, 08:39 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by jowcol View Post
Thanks for responding kenmore. I know that Zora avenged the loss with a fairly quick knockout in their rematch in 1960 but the I've seen the first bout and IMO it certainly wasn't a 'blatant robbery'. I think Zora caught him with a shot in the 2nd and decked Henry (nothing major). But Cooper rose and for pretty much the rest of the fight banged with Zora and came on late, staying aggressive and not letting Folley get off. Certainly not a blatant robbery.
I have to still stand by my opinion of Bugner tho. "Never has so little been done by someone with so much talent"
Point taken. I never saw the Cooper-Foley fight, and know only what little I've read of it. Maybe it wasn't a robbery. I do know that it established Cooper in the worldwide top-10 for the first time, a position that he generally held until 1971.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:52 PM   #23
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

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I'm not aware of your posting style to judge whether you're being sarcastic or not, sorry.
lol
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:26 PM   #24
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Joe Bugner sometimes gets more credit for his performance in his losses to
Ali I and Joe Frazier in 1973, than in his victories.

Jowcol is correct,

Bugners performance in his shot at the World Heavyweight Championship versus
Muhammad Ali in 1975 was a non-effort. He did not try to win. He lost alot of
respect after that fight.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:45 PM   #25
kenmore
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Joe Bugner sometimes gets more credit for his performance in his losses to
Ali I and Joe Frazier in 1973, than in his victories.

Jowcol is correct,

Bugners performance in his shot at the World Heavyweight Championship versus
Muhammad Ali in 1975 was a non-effort. He did not try to win. He lost alot of
respect after that fight.
Bugner didn't do that badly against Ali in 1975. Sure, he lost a one sided decision. Still, he went the distance with a still-dangerous Ali, when lots of other contenders could not have done the same.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:50 PM   #26
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
Joe Bugner sometimes gets more credit for his performance in his losses to
Ali I and Joe Frazier in 1973, than in his victories.
Some fighters are like that: they show their true abilities only in fine losing efforts against better fighters. Bugner is one such example. Immediately following his 1973 Ali and Frazier fights, everyone agreed that Bugner was legitimate.

Bugner's best wins were not earth-shaking performances, though. He beat Jimmy Ellis, ranked #10 by Ring Magazine at the time, in one sided fashion by decision. But the British crowd was unhappy with Bugner's failure to dispatch the aging Ellis.

Henry Cooper was rated in almost everyone's top 10 when Bugner beat him, but that was a fight that could have gone either way.

Another fairly big name that Bugner beat was Mac Foster. But Foster had fallen out of the top 10 by the time Bugner got to him. The victory was another one sided decision that failed to impress British observers.

Bugner's other big win during his prime -- over Richard Dunn -- was good in the sense that Dunn was ranked just inside everyone's top 10 at the time. But Dunn, whom Bugner dispatched in one round, was an exceptionally chinny fighter who would probably have been KO'd by any decent top 20 heavyweight at the time.

Last edited by kenmore; 03-31-2012 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:37 AM   #27
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenmore View Post
I have serious doubts about your boxing knowledge. Sorry to be so blunt.
i guess im not d Xpert that u r m8
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:55 AM   #28
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Folley 2(1):0(0) vs Cooper.
Cooper did much better than Bugner vs Ali , except from being more cuttable .
D thing is Cooper was also stopped by Folley , Patterson and others . But in his case he wasn't lucky at all 2 get stopped on cuts against Ali . IDK which 1 of them was better but Bugner was a somewhat less beatable heavyweight even if not by much and even this only due 2 his size advantage .
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Old 03-31-2012, 05:53 AM   #29
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

June 1970

An early Boxing Report on Joe Bugner,

'Good Fighter Gone Average'

Joe Bugner, a young boxer with potential, one who could make some
noise in the heavyweight division. Bugner who has just turned 21 years of
age, appears to be much more advanced than any young heavyweight
in the division, but he is not invincible as recent fights have shown.

The Hungarian-born Heayweight sports a fine record of 26-2-0, and
has stopped 18 of his opponents. He has emerged as Europe's
Young Hope, and is on the cusp of breaking out.

May 18, 1969 - Bugner wins an 8-Round decision over one Jack O'Halloran.
A giant of a man at 6' 6" and 225 lbs. and with a record of 16-2-1, the
American heavyweight pushed Bugner to the edge in there encounter.

August 25, 1969 - Bugner is out-pointed over 8-rounds, by a small
American Light-Heavyweight named Dick Hall. Hall only stands at 5' 10",
but the smaller man jibbed and jabbed Bugner around with ease.

January 20, 1970 - Bugner defeats favorite Playboy Johnny Prescott.
Showing the skills that we had expected to see earlier, Bugner dominates
the 45-bout veteran over 8 spirited rounds, but not without a scare or
two from the faded veteran and one-time British Star.

March 24, 1970 - Bugner faces 6' 4" Mexican Hevyweight Manuel Ramos.
Ramos 23-10-2 and World Title Challenger rocks the young Heavyweight
early, but cannot capitalize on his success. Bugner re-groups to pound
out a solid decision win. His best win of his young career.

May 12, 1970 - In his most difficult battle, Bugner faced the tough and
battle hardened Brian London. London with all the experience of 57-bouts
and 2 World Title Challenges is stopped in the 5th Round, but not before
he lands his own solid blows. Though a solid win, it can be said that
Mr. London has seen better days.

Last edited by Senor Pepe'; 03-31-2012 at 06:24 AM.
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:36 PM   #30
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Default Re: Joe Bugner 'Overrated/Underrated'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senor Pepe' View Post
June 1970

An early Boxing Report on Joe Bugner,

'Good Fighter Gone Average'

Joe Bugner, a young boxer with potential, one who could make some
noise in the heavyweight division. Bugner who has just turned 21 years of
age, appears to be much more advanced than any young heavyweight
in the division, but he is not invincible as recent fights have shown.

The Hungarian-born Heayweight sports a fine record of 26-2-0, and
has stopped 18 of his opponents. He has emerged as Europe's
Young Hope, and is on the cusp of breaking out.

May 18, 1969 - Bugner wins an 8-Round decision over one Jack O'Halloran.
A giant of a man at 6' 6" and 225 lbs. and with a record of 16-2-1, the
American heavyweight pushed Bugner to the edge in there encounter.

August 25, 1969 - Bugner is out-pointed over 8-rounds, by a small
American Light-Heavyweight named Dick Hall. Hall only stands at 5' 10",
but the smaller man jibbed and jabbed Bugner around with ease.

January 20, 1970 - Bugner defeats favorite Playboy Johnny Prescott.
Showing the skills that we had expected to see earlier, Bugner dominates
the 45-bout veteran over 8 spirited rounds, but not without a scare or
two from the faded veteran and one-time British Star.

March 24, 1970 - Bugner faces 6' 4" Mexican Hevyweight Manuel Ramos.
Ramos 23-10-2 and World Title Challenger rocks the young Heavyweight
early, but cannot capitalize on his success. Bugner re-groups to pound
out a solid decision win. His best win of his young career.

May 12, 1970 - In his most difficult battle, Bugner faced the tough and
battle hardened Brian London. London with all the experience of 57-bouts
and 2 World Title Challenges is stopped in the 5th Round, but not before
he lands his own solid blows. Though a solid win, it can be said that
Mr. London has seen better days.
These were all solid wins for Bugner, who was just 19-20 yrs old at the time and hadn't had any amateur career worth speaking of. These victories were literally Bugner's substitute for amateur experience.

Most of the victims on this list were solid "B" level heavyweights.

Concerning the Hall fight, it was a very close decsion. Hall won by just one round. Many observers felt Bugner should have gotten the nod.

I'll mention also that O'Hallaron weighed much more than 225 lbs. He was closer to 260 lbs when he fought Bugner.
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