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Old 04-01-2012, 08:46 AM   #16
Mendoza
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
That's the point, the two best guys he came up against both found a way inside and both beat him.

His poor handspeed has been shown up against byrd and lewis.

His power was good in his prime but his volume and conditioning earned him the stoppages.

Plus I had byrd and chisora taking more than two rounds. Lewis would have taken more also but vitali was in no fit state to continue.
I don't think you can use the infighter angle to qualify greats unless you are taking Ali off the list. Ali lost to lesser guys than Lewis. The Lewis loss was a cuts loss, not a boxing ability loss, and keep in mind Vitali took the fight on less than 2 weeks notice, and lacked some world class experience. A re-match was needed. Lewis didn't want it.

Before the shoulder and knee surgeries, Vitlai hit even harder. Consider this, Universum said he hit hard than Wlad.

Byrd was fighting a guy with a torn shoulder. That had a lot to do with the performance! Chisroa was fighting a 40 year old fighter who had a minor shoulder tear. Again, that had a lot to do with the performance.
I gave Chisora three rounds.

Take any heavyweight you wish, and I can show you a man who lost far more rounds, in some cases to lesser talents. This includes Ali, and Holmes.
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:48 AM   #17
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

Hes top 20 if hes lucky, no way on Gods green earth does he break the top 10
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:50 AM   #18
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by Guyfawkes View Post
Hes top 20 if hes lucky, no way on Gods green earth does he break the top 10
Who are you ranking above him ?
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:51 AM   #19
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
I don't think you can use the infighter angle to qualify greats unless you are taking Ali off the list. Ali lost to lesser guys than Lewis. The Lewis loss was a cuts loss, not a boxing ability loss, and keep in mind Vitali took the fight on less than 2 weeks notice, and lacked some world class experience. A re-match was needed. Lewis didn't want it.

Before the shoulder and knee surgeries, Vitlai hit even harder. Consider this, Universum said he hit hard than Wlad.

Byrd was fighting a guy with a torn shoulder. That had a lot to do with the performance! Chisroa was fighting a 40 year old fighter who had a minor shoulder tear. Again, that had a lot to do with the performance.
I gave Chisora three rounds.

Take any heavyweight you wish, and I can show you a man who lost far more rounds, in some cases to lesser talents. This includes Ali, and Holmes.
Does your mouth ever get tired??? what with u consantly sucking the Klitschkos balls and all
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

My issue with Vitali is how unproven he is.

Seriously he's along the samle level of top victories as ibeabuchi except he has losses on top of that to boot.

Even going from Lewis and Byrd how beat him, his next level of opponent is fat sanders, fat johnson and fat pete. All had a good ranking but all turned up to the fight grossly overweight. Infact a pattern generally with Vitali is guys seem to come in overweight, maybe hoping the extra pounds will help them walk him down, I don't know.

Adamek was in prime condition and that was a veyr good performance against a mobile opponent who isn't overly defensive. Then it's guys like Arreola and Solis who could go on to be good, but are still unknown themselves somewhat.

Had any other top level HW fought Vitali's schedule I'd pick them to remain unbeaten aside from against Lewis.

The one anomaly is Sanders destruction of Wlad, is Wald always open to the southpaw counter left? hard to say, there's not many big counterpunching southpaws throughout hw history. Wlad seemed to get better with Steward but it's hard to gauge if that opening is still there. I'd say not. Certainly not against the fat inactive Sanders that Vitali wore down.
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:56 AM   #21
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza View Post
I don't think you can use the infighter angle to qualify greats unless you are taking Ali off the list. Ali lost to lesser guys than Lewis. The Lewis loss was a cuts loss, not a boxing ability loss, and keep in mind Vitali took the fight on less than 2 weeks notice, and lacked some world class experience. A re-match was needed. Lewis didn't want it.

Before the shoulder and knee surgeries, Vitlai hit even harder. Consider this, Universum said he hit hard than Wlad.

Byrd was fighting a guy with a torn shoulder. That had a lot to do with the performance! Chisroa was fighting a 40 year old fighter who had a minor shoulder tear. Again, that had a lot to do with the performance.
I gave Chisora three rounds.

Take any heavyweight you wish, and I can show you a man who lost far more rounds, in some cases to lesser talents. This includes Ali, and Holmes.
The difference with Ali is he only lost ont he inside once and that was after a 4 year hiatus to the greatest pressure fighter in hw history. He has probably the second fastest hands to patterson and because of this he can control fights with his speed and accuracy.

In his prime Vitali twice lost to the two best guys he faced and twice on the inside.

Lewis was an ability loss, ofcourse, his defence was shit, his infighting was shit and his ability to keep Lewis on the outside was shit. Sure he could outdo him when both were outfighting, but once Lewis decided to walk Vitali down, Vitali looked helpless.

A rematch against a past prime inactive Lewis wouldn't prove much and I'd expect Vitali to stop him had they fought again.

Against Byrd he threw his shoulder out because he throws so many punches but hopelessly inaccurate in his delivery. Against Byrd he was being walked down, against chris fukin byrd!

Chisora means nothing. I was referring to your 2 round comment.

Most HW's lose rounds because most HW's at this level fight a better level of competition.
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:57 AM   #22
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Who are you ranking above him ?
Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Johnson, Jeffries, Holyfield, Lewis, Louis, Holmes, Tyson, Charles, Walcott, Dempsey, Tunney, Marciano

Probably a few more too
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:01 AM   #23
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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How do you, and others, think he would do with a primed Buster Douglas, Tim Witherspoon, Ken Norton?
Really, I tend to think that guys like Douglas and Norton are very often overrated against other fighters based on their victories over one fighter.
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:08 AM   #24
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by Guyfawkes View Post
Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Johnson, Jeffries, Holyfield, Lewis, Louis, Holmes, Tyson, Charles, Walcott, Dempsey, Tunney, Marciano

Probably a few more too
I don't see guys like Charles, Walcott, Johnson, and Tunney as really bringing much to challenge the Klitschko that fought Lewis. They don't have much power, and their boxing abilities (while they are impressive) seem to offer little against someone like Klitschko who knows how to use his significant height and weight advantage.
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Old 04-01-2012, 09:40 AM   #25
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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It's very very difficult to know for sure as he's fought against an unusually low level of competition for a top 10 type. I'd guess that although he could probably beat a couple of guys in the top 10 he probably wouldn't do well enough to crack the top 10. Good fighter though.
This.
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:30 AM   #26
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
My issue with Vitali is how unproven he is.

Seriously he's along the samle level of top victories as ibeabuchi except he has losses on top of that to boot.

Even going from Lewis and Byrd how beat him, his next level of opponent is fat sanders, fat johnson and fat pete. All had a good ranking but all turned up to the fight grossly overweight. Infact a pattern generally with Vitali is guys seem to come in overweight, maybe hoping the extra pounds will help them walk him down, I don't know.

Adamek was in prime condition and that was a veyr good performance against a mobile opponent who isn't overly defensive. Then it's guys like Arreola and Solis who could go on to be good, but are still unknown themselves somewhat.

Had any other top level HW fought Vitali's schedule I'd pick them to remain unbeaten aside from against Lewis.

The one anomaly is Sanders destruction of Wlad, is Wald always open to the southpaw counter left? hard to say, there's not many big counterpunching southpaws throughout hw history. Wlad seemed to get better with Steward but it's hard to gauge if that opening is still there. I'd say not. Certainly not against the fat inactive Sanders that Vitali wore down.
Ibeaubuchi has two better wins than anything on Vitali's resume. An argument could be made that Vitali's body of work is better but for me Ibeaubuchi has the better resume.
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:51 AM   #27
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Ibeaubuchi has two better wins than anything on Vitali's resume. An argument could be made that Vitali's body of work is better but for me Ibeaubuchi has the better resume.
Never lost in his prime and quite clearly has the best two victories.

Vitali has a big edge in depth so it depends how you rate vitali's other opponents.

Vitali certainly has an edge in achievement.
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Old 04-01-2012, 12:38 PM   #28
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

Maybe top 20 but not over top 15, none of the Klitschkos impress me, they are very good sportsmen, but lack a lot of skills when it comes to boxing. Canīt compare them with all time greats.
That is my opinion.
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:52 PM   #29
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

Vitali always reminds me of Jess Willard style wise. He uses his size to good advantage and is adept at keeping an opponent at arms length. He fights like the old timers did with that lean back/keep the other guy at bay so he can unload his shots style. The big question mark in my mind is how would he do against a top level fast pressure fighter ala Dempsey or Frazier or Tyson. Men who employed good head movement to slip shots and get inside to do damage. Could he keep men like them at arms length all night? Maybe but for me there are too many questions regardind Vitali to accurately rank him H2H against past greats. He just hasn't met that level of competition to warrant an accurate H2H rating. My best guess is that he would be tough for anyone but would he beat the best? Just can't say.
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Old 04-01-2012, 08:55 PM   #30
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

Top 20-and that's a great compliment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Predator View Post
Maybe top 20 but not over top 15, none of the Klitschkos impress me, they are very good sportsmen, but lack a lot of skills when it comes to boxing. Canīt compare them with all time greats.
That is my opinion.
They're not the Baldwins, dude. There's only two of them.
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