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Old 04-01-2012, 11:07 PM   #46
Guyfawkes
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by mr12 View Post
No, I didn't just say that Klitschko was "big n tall."
U said he had a good chin and that he was heavy and tall
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:20 PM   #47
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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That's the point, the two best guys he came up against both found a way inside and both beat him.

His poor handspeed has been shown up against byrd and lewis.

His power was good in his prime but his volume and conditioning earned him the stoppages.

Plus I had byrd and chisora taking more than two rounds. Lewis would have taken more also but vitali was in no fit state to continue.
That overhand right that caught Lennox seemed to get to Mr. Lewis pretty quickly.
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Old 04-01-2012, 11:21 PM   #48
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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I think the Chisora fight hurt this idea that Vitali is some H2H monster. It was a fight he won fairly easily on the cards but every round was tough - so tough that we got the usual injury excuse and then a mention of a rematch. This is against a guy who was nearly shut out against Tyson Fury, had less than 20 amateur fights and 17 pro fights.

Vitali, on the other hand, was highly praised after the Adamek win and many saw him as being near his prime.

Chisora has a style that should be easy for Vitali. He's not particular good at anything and he is lacking power, stamina and fight experience and yet he was still able to test Vitali. Had Chisora been more experienced, I think he'd have won that fight which doesn't say a lot about Vitali.

Fans tend to rate guys with big punches and a good chin higher H2H than they deserve. Vitali hits hard and has an excellent chin but he isn't a great fighter, based on his resume or how he'd far against other elite heavyweights.

The guy is 40 years old.
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Old 04-02-2012, 03:24 AM   #49
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

If you ignore quality of opposition, concentrate purely on h2h and ignore his losses. Sure, why not.
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Old 04-02-2012, 03:27 AM   #50
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

Yes.

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Old 04-02-2012, 04:06 AM   #51
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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If his recent performances went along with that, I'd agree. However, he looked great against Adamek and completely dominated a guy who was seen as a legit threat. Adamek was probably the third or fourth best in the world at the time and would be one of Vitali's top 5 wins.

Considering how impressive he was against Adamek, I don't buy into this argument that his age has caught up with him. When guys age overnight, it's usually due to a tough fight and Vitali hasn't been in a tough fight since Lewis, so I don't think you can say that about Vitali either. According to Vitali himself, he's feeling great in training and seems to be over all his injury woes.
Vitali is ancient, and Tomasz Adamek is no spring chicken himself.
If Adamek had shown enough at heavyweight to rate among the world's top 4 that says nothing except that the division is lacking.

They all say they are feeling great in training.


Quote:
Maybe it's a bit harsh. I just don't think Vitali's age is an excuse for such a average performance. I think Chisora showed up flaws that have always been there and aren't exactly hard to find out.

I agree, he's always had flaws.
But he is old, and he clearly won that fight, and the only relevation to me was that Chisora could box as well as that.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:10 AM   #52
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

He wouldn't make my top 10 heavyweights of all-time.
He wouldn't make my top 20.

I don't think in terms of exclusively "h2h" ratings. You can only base "h2h" on who they beat and how they looked beating them ie. on actual accomplishments, or proven ability.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:27 AM   #53
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Vitali has zero inside game.
And Ali had tons.

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Originally Posted by bodhi View Post
If you ignore quality of opposition, concentrate purely on h2h and ignore his losses. Sure, why not.
I don't think you have to ignore his losses, you just have to take them for what they are - unlucky injuries based stoppages when he was winning.



It's true that H2H rankings are based on the "gut feeling" a lot, but I still think a good analyst can make them with some validity. IMO it's very rational to put Vitali in the top 10.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:40 AM   #54
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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I don't think you have to ignore his losses, you just have to take them for what they are - unlucky injuries based stoppages when he was winning.
Yeah, he was simply unlucky that Lennox Lewis's punches were turning his face in to minced meat.
What a fluke, it never happened before or since to him ... just his bad luck that it chose to occur when he was fighting highly-regarded champion Lennox Lewis of all people !
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:56 AM   #55
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Yeah, he was simply unlucky that Lennox Lewis's punches were turning his face in to minced meat.
What a fluke, it never happened before or since to him ... just his bad luck that it chose to occur when he was fighting highly-regarded champion Lennox Lewis of all people !
I don't consider it a fluke but the punch that opened the Cut was a wild overhand right, likely landed with a side of a glove. Vitali took more of the best Lewis had to offer, like the Uppercut and walked through it all. The cut itself was a lot due to bad luck I'd say, yeah. Had it not been the case, I think Vitali would win. People in the arena were whispering to each other that Lewis is done, on his absolutely last legs after the 6th.

AND he didn't give him a promised rematch which undoubtedly says something. Vitali was a match for Lewis, it's irrefutable, and that itself puts him high in H2H rankings.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:10 AM   #56
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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If his recent performances went along with that, I'd agree. However, he looked great against Adamek and completely dominated a guy who was seen as a legit threat. Adamek was probably the third or fourth best in the world at the time and would be one of Vitali's top 5 wins.

Considering how impressive he was against Adamek, I don't buy into this argument that his age has caught up with him. When guys age overnight, it's usually due to a tough fight and Vitali hasn't been in a tough fight since Lewis, so I don't think you can say that about Vitali either. According to Vitali himself, he's feeling great in training and seems to be over all his injury woes.

Maybe it's a bit harsh. I just don't think Vitali's age is an excuse for such a average performance. I think Chisora showed up flaws that have always been there and aren't exactly hard to find out.
Either that or he had one arm from the 4th round on and was injured for **** sakes. In spite of that he won 9 or 10 rounds at 40 years of age.

The amazing thing is that your disdain for Vitali is so vast that you're actually capable of spewing forth bias horse shit like while seeming to actually believe it yourself.

If any other fighter won 9-3 (how i scored it) in a competitive, exciting, but clear cut victory it would be regarded as a great win but when a 40 year old Vitali does it with one arm for 8+ rounds it shows "flaws that have always been there that Chisora exposed" ****ing Brits.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:13 AM   #57
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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How do you, and others, think he would do with a primed Buster Douglas, Tim Witherspoon, Ken Norton?
I think he knocks all of them out early.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:14 AM   #58
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

People will no doubt strongly disagree, but I'd have him closer to the top 10 than his brother.

Does he make it? Not sure. The top 10 is not exactly easy to crack. After all, we're talking of the ten best ever. Lofty heights indeed.

What I like about him though, is that he's a genuine fighter. He has the right mentality and is, imo, more proven than Wlad as he at least fought 'the man' and gave a very good account of himself.
Good enough that the hypothetical outcome has been hotly debated ever since.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:19 AM   #59
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

Peter
Gomez
Arreola
Johnson
Sosnowski
Briggs
Solis
Adamek
Chisora

Say all you want about 'poor opposition' but the fact that Vitali between ages 38-40 has fought all of these fighters and not lost more than 5 rounds maximum speaks to how formitable he is, 3 of them when he only had 1 arm.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:26 AM   #60
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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The difference with Ali is he only lost ont he inside once and that was after a 4 year hiatus to the greatest pressure fighter in hw history. He has probably the second fastest hands to patterson and because of this he can control fights with his speed and accuracy.
Well Ali put the clamps on Frazier with excessive clinching. Without doing that, could he have defeated Frazier? Ali also lost on the outside to Norton, which is something Vitali never has had problems with. The only fighter able to get on the inside and do damage to Vitali was Lewis, who himself was a super heavyweight, 6'5" with an 84" reach. Lewis himself said Vitali was very hard to hit. Getting past Vitali's jab and right hand is no easy task. Vitali moves his feet and head, and can block. An active swarming type like Arreola could not reach him. If truth is told, Vitali was seldom caught flush. Ali was caught by many punches, and not all of them happened when he was past his prime.


There have only been 4 very good super heavyweights ( Lewis, Wlad, Bowe, and Vitali ) and I would say Vitali is better than 2 of them. If we are talking head to head here, there are going be quite a few smaller guys on your own list, which just won't match up.
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