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Old 04-02-2012, 05:31 AM   #61
bonzo7580
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

no ali louis holmes tyson foreman frazier liston holyfield lewis and bowe all beat him .
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:51 AM   #62
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

There were other cuts and damage to Vitali's face in the Lewis fight, Lewis is top 5 if not top 3, I don't believe this infighting rubbish about Vitali, maybe Lewis showed him up but no one else has, every fighter thinks they can get on the inside with him but they can't he is just too good and they pay the price when they try.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:36 AM   #63
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by freelaw View Post
And Ali had tons.


I don't think you have to ignore his losses, you just have to take them for what they are - unlucky injuries based stoppages when he was winning.



It's true that H2H rankings are based on the "gut feeling" a lot, but I still think a good analyst can make them with some validity. IMO it's very rational to put Vitali in the top 10.
Like jones jr, ali was an athletic freak. He didn't have to play by these usual stylistic rules because he was so much quicker, sharper and accurate than anyone else. He could potshot his way to victory over almost any heavyweight in history, the one exception being joe frazier.

With vitali's style it's very easy to picture ali landing 2 or 3 shots and then dancing out of range again.

Vitali's losses were not "unlucky". His first was where he was made to luck wild and unco-ordinated against chris byrd. If you throw that many power shots and miss 90% of them it's going to have an affect. Had he thrown less punches he'd have been massively outlanded. I had vitali 1 up on points with byrd having huge momentum. Certainly not an unlucky loss. He had the option to avenge it but he sent the much more technically it's sound younger brother in his place.

His loss to lewis certainly wasn't unlucky. He was winning the outside battle, lewis adjusted and brought the fight to vitali and we all saw the evidence. Vitali was battered to the point he couldn't continue.

His other prime victories were against hide, johnson, sanders and williams. Whilst he looked very impressive in each of these (i certainly don't think anyone would have an easy time against him) arguably the only man who turned up in shape was williams.

His comeback has added a lot of bonus points to what I think he's capable of but the more you watch him fight the more it's patently obvious he does not belong in a top ten h2h list.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:02 AM   #64
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Well Ali put the clamps on Frazier with excessive clinching. Without doing that, could he have defeated Frazier? Ali also lost on the outside to Norton, which is something Vitali never has had problems with. The only fighter able to get on the inside and do damage to Vitali was Lewis, who himself was a super heavyweight, 6'5" with an 84" reach. Lewis himself said Vitali was very hard to hit. Getting past Vitali's jab and right hand is no easy task. Vitali moves his feet and head, and can block. An active swarming type like Arreola could not reach him. If truth is told, Vitali was seldom caught flush. Ali was caught by many punches, and not all of them happened when he was past his prime.


There have only been 4 very good super heavyweights ( Lewis, Wlad, Bowe, and Vitali ) and I would say Vitali is better than 2 of them. If we are talking head to head here, there are going be quite a few smaller guys on your own list, which just won't match up.
Probably not, I believe frazier had his number. The anti-ali if you will.

He did, but he beat him in the rematch. He had the ability to beat him in the first and if he took him lightly it's his own problem. The rubber was too far past prime for me to consider.

Vitali will be very effective on the outside because he throws a lot of punches and is tremendously conditioned. He'd have beaten lewis that night if the fight would have stayed outside. I think wlad could beat him outside, pretty much anyone else needs to get in range.

I think we agree on everything to this point.

The difference is the stock we put on the loss to byrd. I thought vitali was an elite h2h fighter until I watched the fight again and scored it. I believe it highlighted huge problems in his arsenal.

I'd add foreman to your list of 4.

I think the following beat vitali: group 1 (byrd, young johnson); group 2 (ali, holyfield); group 3 (wlad); group 4 (lewis, foreman, holmes); group 5 (louis, tyson, frazier, dempsey).

Group 1 are defensive specialists and will make vitali look stupid missing wildly (byproduct of his volume punching) whilst tagging him in the pocket (byproduct of his shit ingame).

Group 2 both have a huge advantage in feet and handspeed. Using lateral movement and ambush tactics they should be able to outpoint him.

Group 3 is the one man who could beat vitali on the outside behind the jab.

Group 4 are big enough and hit hard enough to walk vitali down and get inside.

Group 5 would work their way inside and punish vitali there but would probably need to stop him within 8 (apart from frazier)

I've omitted guys who aren't proven against real heavyweights as it's too much of a stretch (tunney, charles and rocky).

Liston is unproven against a bigger man so i'm not sure he'd be the stronger man, plus with his slow hands vitali should time him.

Norton is tough to pick. I can't see him succeeding against a huge volume punches though.

So against my top 40 or so hw's I see him going about 27-13. That's not top ten material, but it's not miles away.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:18 AM   #65
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

I will have to look at the Byrd fight, I haven't seen it, I thought it was a VK domination until he hurt his shoulder.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:32 AM   #66
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Probably not, I believe frazier had his number. The anti-ali if you will.

He did, but he beat him in the rematch. He had the ability to beat him in the first and if he took him lightly it's his own problem. The rubber was too far past prime for me to consider.

Vitali will be very effective on the outside because he throws a lot of punches and is tremendously conditioned. He'd have beaten lewis that night if the fight would have stayed outside. I think wlad could beat him outside, pretty much anyone else needs to get in range.

I think we agree on everything to this point.

The difference is the stock we put on the loss to byrd. I thought vitali was an elite h2h fighter until I watched the fight again and scored it. I believe it highlighted huge problems in his arsenal.

I'd add foreman to your list of 4.

I think the following beat vitali: group 1 (byrd, young johnson); group 2 (ali, holyfield); group 3 (wlad); group 4 (lewis, foreman, holmes); group 5 (louis, tyson, frazier, dempsey).

Group 1 are defensive specialists and will make vitali look stupid missing wildly (byproduct of his volume punching) whilst tagging him in the pocket (byproduct of his shit ingame).

Group 2 both have a huge advantage in feet and handspeed. Using lateral movement and ambush tactics they should be able to outpoint him.

Group 3 is the one man who could beat vitali on the outside behind the jab.

Group 4 are big enough and hit hard enough to walk vitali down and get inside.

Group 5 would work their way inside and punish vitali there but would probably need to stop him within 8 (apart from frazier)

I've omitted guys who aren't proven against real heavyweights as it's too much of a stretch (tunney, charles and rocky).

Liston is unproven against a bigger man so i'm not sure he'd be the stronger man, plus with his slow hands vitali should time him.

Norton is tough to pick. I can't see him succeeding against a huge volume punches though.

So against my top 40 or so hw's I see him going about 27-13. That's not top ten material, but it's not miles away.
That's a nice post.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:36 AM   #67
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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I will have to look at the Byrd fight, I haven't seen it, I thought it was a VK domination until he hurt his shoulder.
Domination is just a myth that floats around the internet.

How anyone can watch rounds 5-9 and say vitali dominated byrd is beyond me.

I believe it's the second part of the fight on youtube.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:28 PM   #68
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Domination is just a myth that floats around the internet.

How anyone can watch rounds 5-9 and say vitali dominated byrd is beyond me.

I believe it's the second part of the fight on youtube.
Amazing. So you base all of your H2H opinion of him on 5 rounds of boxing where Vitali had a torn rotator cuff which required surgery. Sound logic

One could just as easily pick Lennox, Ali, Foreman, Louis fights where they looked poor or struggled (while uninjured and against worse opposition than Byrd) to denigrate them but i'll leave that forte to you.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:54 PM   #69
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

He's pretty close. Guys who would likely beat him include: Lewis, Foreman, Bowe

Guys I think would beat him include: Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Liston,

Guys who are ATG but I think are too small to beat him include: Frazier, Dempsey, Marciano,

Guys I'm really not sure of: Louis, Wlad, Holyfield.

Louis could potentially get on the inside then it's over, Holyfield has a chin of granite and could potentially outbox him, and Wlad could win a decision if he can handle Vitali's punches and doesn't panic when someone's throwing back at him.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:13 PM   #70
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

Hard to say because of the quality of his opponents. How would Vitali do against a Dempsey or a Louis or a relentless Marciano....they fighters today are not experienced, maybe more experienced than most of Holmes opposition...Lets see how he ends his reign
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:14 AM   #71
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by lufcrazy View Post
Domination is just a myth that floats around the internet.

How anyone can watch rounds 5-9 and say vitali dominated byrd is beyond me.

I believe it's the second part of the fight on youtube.
Vitali still won most of these rounds though. Byrd just wan't active enough.
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Old 04-03-2012, 02:28 AM   #72
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Probably not, I believe frazier had his number. The anti-ali if you will.

He did, but he beat him in the rematch. He had the ability to beat him in the first and if he took him lightly it's his own problem. The rubber was too far past prime for me to consider.

Vitali will be very effective on the outside because he throws a lot of punches and is tremendously conditioned. He'd have beaten lewis that night if the fight would have stayed outside. I think wlad could beat him outside, pretty much anyone else needs to get in range.

I think we agree on everything to this point.

The difference is the stock we put on the loss to byrd. I thought vitali was an elite h2h fighter until I watched the fight again and scored it. I believe it highlighted huge problems in his arsenal.
If you go by losses one could just as easily look at losses of any of the fighters mentioned and pick Vitali to beat them. Foreman had shitty balance. Frazier was too small. Ali struggled against counter-punchers. Lewis was unfocused and lazy. Tyson had no ring smarts and could not adjust his game in the face of adversity. The list goes one.
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:22 AM   #73
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Originally Posted by bremen View Post
If you go by losses one could just as easily look at losses of any of the fighters mentioned and pick Vitali to beat them. Foreman had shitty balance. Frazier was too small. Ali struggled against counter-punchers. Lewis was unfocused and lazy. Tyson had no ring smarts and could not adjust his game in the face of adversity. The list goes one.
Byrd comfortably outlanded vitali rounds 5-9.

Yes look at what happened to guys in real life and make your pick.

Foreman in his prime only lost to ali and young. Everyone else he destroyed. I don't think vitali is a defensive specialist. I think he gets walked down.

Frazier is just as big as byrd who was able to get inside and walk vitali down. Frazier punches harder and with greater accuracy.

Ali struggled against the greatest pressure fighter in hw history. He split a series with norton. Anything else is post prime. If you think vitali can replicate the awkward body attack and wild overhand right of norton then fair enough.

Lewis can be taken out by any hw I believe. Vitali has a punchers chance. Considering their actual fight i'm confident picking lewis.

Tyson would destroy vitali at range. He isn't fluid enough with his punching to replicate douglas's fight plan imo.

The list does go on. If any guy I picked lost to a fighter who stylistically matches vitali then i'll reconsider.
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:30 AM   #74
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Well Ali put the clamps on Frazier with excessive clinching. Without doing that, could he have defeated Frazier? Ali also lost on the outside to Norton, which is something Vitali never has had problems with. The only fighter able to get on the inside and do damage to Vitali was Lewis, who himself was a super heavyweight, 6'5" with an 84" reach. Lewis himself said Vitali was very hard to hit. Getting past Vitali's jab and right hand is no easy task. Vitali moves his feet and head, and can block. An active swarming type like Arreola could not reach him. If truth is told, Vitali was seldom caught flush. Ali was caught by many punches, and not all of them happened when he was past his prime.


There have only been 4 very good super heavyweights ( Lewis, Wlad, Bowe, and Vitali ) and I would say Vitali is better than 2 of them. If we are talking head to head here, there are going be quite a few smaller guys on your own list, which just won't match up.
Vitali hasn't fought any good inside fighters, Lennox himself said he didn't like in-fighting. Chisora was probably the only decent in-fighter/pressure fighter and he won 4rounds
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:34 AM   #75
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Default Re: Is Vitali Klitschko in the Top 10 H2H ?

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Byrd comfortably outlanded vitali rounds 5-9.

Yes look at what happened to guys in real life and make your pick.

Foreman in his prime only lost to ali and young. Everyone else he destroyed. I don't think vitali is a defensive specialist. I think he gets walked down.

Frazier is just as big as byrd who was able to get inside and walk vitali down. Frazier punches harder and with greater accuracy.

Ali struggled against the greatest pressure fighter in hw history. He split a series with norton. Anything else is post prime. If you think vitali can replicate the awkward body attack and wild overhand right of norton then fair enough.

Lewis can be taken out by any hw I believe. Vitali has a punchers chance. Considering their actual fight i'm confident picking lewis.

Tyson would destroy vitali at range. He isn't fluid enough with his punching to replicate douglas's fight plan imo.

The list does go on. If any guy I picked lost to a fighter who stylistically matches vitali then i'll reconsider.
I agree with most of this except I give Vitali a shot against Foreman, that's probably a 50-50, it would probably be similar to the Lennox fight, with Vitali landing more but Foreman landing bigger more damaging punches

I also don't give Vitali a punchers chance against Lewis, Vitali is an arm puncher and stops fighters on accumulation

I still have Vitali as borderline top10 though
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