Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

[Hands of Iron]

Originally Posted by the cobra

I feel that he's been comfortably above Rocky since before this weird "comeback" thing. Agreed with those who said there isn't really any kind of case for Rocky here, though I'd guess they're reasonably close (as in a separation of 15 spots or so).

Even then, the scrutiny is probably unjust.

Mosley and Ortiz were Top 3 rated Welterweights; Marquez was P4P No. 2 (and drew at worst with Pac two years after Floyd shut him out).

Cotto is the No. 1 LMW.

[the cobra]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

Even then, the scrutiny is probably unjust.

Mosley and Ortiz were Top 3 rated Welterweights; Marquez was P4P No. 2 (and drew at worst with Pac two years after Floyd shut him out).

Cotto is the No. 1 LMW.

Oh, I'm not criticizing him for the comeback opposition (my only real criticism is for the retirement in the first place). I'm just saying he doesn't even need these 3 recent wins to outrank Rocky. He was already ahead as I saw it.

[Hands of Iron]

Oh, I got that the first time. Was just commenting on a lot of the general criticism.

[MrOliverKlozoff]

It pains me to say it but it's gotta be Mayweather by now. And his career will probably look a lot better when people have had time to see he's gone for good and new generations will be discovering him without the overly critical eye of grandad boxing fan for the new kid on the block.

[Muchmoore]

I'd rank May higher probably but it would be close. Marciano is probably the smallest great heavyweight unless you want to include Lang.

[Legend X]

I'd rate Marciano higher.
He beat Louis, Walcott, Charles, Moore, and defended the undisputed title six times.

The men Mayweather beat that are actually going down as ATG names were actually just as old or past their best as the ones Rocky beat. Who have we got ? DeLaHoya ? Moseley ? Marquez ?
And the titles and weight class stuff I'll admit confuses me.

[sweet_scientist]

I wouldn't rate Mayweather higher. On a par, possibly. Though, I think I've even denied that in the past...

[Mendoza]

As a boxer, sure. As a fighter, no way.

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by orriray59

Mayweather. C'mon now, Marciano had his wins but Mayweather has Marquez, Corrales, Castillo, Ortiz, Mosley, Gatti, etc. He has dominated for many years now and rarely loses a round.
Marciano was great too but his resume was lacking.

I wouldn't call it lacking, but yes, certainly Mayweather has fought tougher opposition. I love the Rock, but Floyd is just a superior fighter, no question.
I've never actually done a list, but I'd imagine I'd rank Mayweather much, much higher than Marciano.

As a rule, heavyweights by rights should not rank highly, P4P. The smaller guys have always been far superior fighters.

[Legend X]

Who are all these tougher opponents Mayweather fought ?

Honestly, who have we got ? Corrales and Hatton aren't going down as ATGs, and were not undisputed champions in the traditional weight classes. They were good fighters. Baldomir and Gatti were not great fighters.

Mayweather has fought across 17 or 24 pounds, and every five or seven pounds there's another multitude of "champions" and "world contenders", maybe that's why he's being credited with superior opposition. You've got men there picking up titles and #1 ratings who would have struggled to get a top 10 rating back in the 1950s, when there were 8 champions and only 80 places for contenders across the whole sport.
Marciano fought in 1 division, and faced guys who were 10, 15, 24 pounds heavier than him.

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Legend X

Who are all these tougher opponents Mayweather fought ?

Honestly, who have we got ? Corrales and Hatton aren't going down as ATGs, and were not undisputed champions in the traditional weight classes. They were good fighters. Baldomir and Gatti were not great fighters.

Mayweather has fought across 17 or 24 pounds, and every five or seven pounds there's another multitude of "champions" and "world contenders", maybe that's why he's being credited with superior opposition. You've got men there picking up titles and #1 ratings who would have struggled to get a top 10 rating back in the 1950s, when there were 8 champions and only 80 places for contenders across the whole sport.
Marciano fought in 1 division, and faced guys who were 10, 15, 24 pounds heavier than him.

The laws of physics change as you go up in weight though. It's to me a greater challenge for a 130 pounder to go up to 154 and challenge for a title than it is for a heavyweight to fight a guy 24 pounds heavier than himself.

For example, a 220 pounder facing a 244 pounder is no big deal, at heavyweight.
But, a natural 130 pounder fighting at (eventually) junior middleweight and winning a belt is much more impressive, if you ask me.

And to be fair, Marciano went through the grinder is a couple of fights, such as Walcott 1, Charles (More the first fight, but to a certain extent both) Lastarza for a while etc.
Mayweather hasn't been really extended for quite some time now, and mostly hasn't been.
Judah gave him a good argument for a while, but Mayweather won comfortably enough in the end.
In recent years, I can't think of anyone else who's given him a tough argument really.
(Hopefully he and Paquiao can still get in on, although it's looking unlikely lately.)

As for skills, well everyone will have an opinion, but to me Mayweather is just more talented overall.

[johnmaff36]

Marciano for me. No fuckin about, no cherry-picking, no nothing. Just fought who they put in front of him. Cant ask for more than that

[Legend X]

Originally Posted by fists of fury

The laws of physics change as you go up in weight though. It's to me a greater challenge for a 130 pounder to go up to 154 and challenge for a title than it is for a heavyweight to fight a guy 24 pounds heavier than himself.

For example, a 220 pounder facing a 244 pounder is no big deal, at heavyweight.
But, a natural 130 pounder fighting at (eventually) junior middleweight and winning a belt is much more impressive, if you ask me.

Well, who knows what a "natural 130 pounder" is these days. It's more unnatural in many cases.
If Ray Robinson was fighting today, he'd probably be claimed as a 'natural 130 or 126er' too.
they both look like proper welters to me.
Besides, Mayweather won a "belt" at 154 against a man who started out at 130 too, which kind of illustrates the point.
And there are so many belts around too, it's not always sign of a huge achievement.

Marciano is a simpler case. He beat 4 HOF guys, won an undisputed belt in a proper weight class, defended six times, retired.

No one has said anything here yet to convince me Mayweather has done better.

[he grant]

If you go on number of championship bouts, quality of opposition and over all dominance you have to favor Mayweather ...

[fists of fury]

Originally Posted by Legend X

Well, who knows what a "natural 130 pounder" is these days. It's more unnatural in many cases.
If Ray Robinson was fighting today, he'd probably be claimed as a 'natural 130 or 126er' too.
they both look like proper welters to me.
Besides, Mayweather won a "belt" at 154 against a man who started out at 130 too, which kind of illustrates the point.
And there are so many belts around too, it's not always sign of a huge achievement.

Marciano is a simpler case. He beat 4 HOF guys, won an undisputed belt in a proper weight class, defended six times, retired.

No one has said anything here yet to convince me Mayweather has done better.

It seems to me that you're holding it against Mayweather that he's fighting in the era he's in. (?)

Can anyone in this day and age be expected to win the undisputed title when moving up in weight? Duran didn't, Hearns didn't, Paquiao hasn't...I don't think it demeans their accomplishments in the slightest.

Anyway, I'm not so much trying to convince you (Who is ever convinced by an alternate viewpoint on the internet?) so much as expand on the reasons I feel Mayweather should be rated higher.