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View Poll Results: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?
Mayweather would rank higher for me 29 52.73%
Marciano would rank higher for me 24 43.64%
So close it doesn't matter. 2 3.64%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-02-2012, 07:31 AM   #31
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

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Originally Posted by fists of fury View Post
It seems to me that you're holding it against Mayweather that he's fighting in the era he's in. (?)

Can anyone in this day and age be expected to win the undisputed title when moving up in weight? Duran didn't, Hearns didn't, Paquiao hasn't...I don't think it demeans their accomplishments in the slightest.

Anyway, I'm not so much trying to convince you (Who is ever convinced by an alternate viewpoint on the internet?) so much as expand on the reasons I feel Mayweather should be rated higher.
I'm not holding it against Mayweather that he's fighting in the era he's in, but if we are going to compare across the eras we need to use a fair standard.

Why should modern fighters benefit from the fact that they have more titles and weight divisions to boast about winning in ?

People are saying stuff like "Mayweather fought more championship fights" , "Mayweather fought more world ranked fighters" etc. , so it needs to be pointed out that a lot of those wouldn't have been championship fights or ranked contenders in Marciano's era.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:48 AM   #32
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

Hm, tough one. Marciano has the better names in Charles, Walcott and Moore. Mayweather has more depth. Mayweather has better longevity and weight-jumping credentials. But Marciano on the other hand was a smallish hw in an open end division. Which counts for more? Both have great achievements but Marcianoīs record is still standing after around 50 years which is quite a unique achievement. Very hard to compare.

Right now, Iīd say they are about on par, I wouldnīt have a problem with either beeing higher. But I guess in the end Mayweather will end up higher since he will add even more depth and perhaps also some more quality to his resume.
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:51 AM   #33
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

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Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
I'm not holding it against Mayweather that he's fighting in the era he's in, but if we are going to compare across the eras we need to use a fair standard.

Why should modern fighters benefit from the fact that they have more titles and weight divisions to boast about winning in ?

People are saying stuff like "Mayweather fought more championship fights" , "Mayweather fought more world ranked fighters" etc. , so it needs to be pointed out that a lot of those wouldn't have been championship fights or ranked contenders in Marciano's era.
It's not that I don't get your point about multiple weight classes and belts (I very much do, and agree with it) but in this day and age we have to take it for what it is.
We'll never see eight weight classes again nor will we ever see unified champions in every division. In my mind, all we can do is go on what we've got.
That does lead to inflated achievements, but it is what it is.
Let's leave Mayweather's weight-jumping out of the equation for a bit.

Based alone on his career at 130, I think a case can be made for ranking him higher than Rocky anyway. (Especially as I rate his skillset higher.)

(I personally think your last point is conjecture. We can't say for sure either way.)
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:06 AM   #34
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

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Originally Posted by fists of fury View Post
It's not that a don't get your point about multiple weight classes and belts (I very much do, and agree with it) but in this day and age we have to take it for what it is.
We'll never see eight weight classes again nor will we ever see unified champions in every division. In my mind, all we can do is go on what we've got.
That does lead to inflated achievements, but it is what it is.

Why can't we just try to weigh those achievements accurately and fairly against the achievements of fighters in other historic environments ?

That seems to be what people try to do around here on a normal day.

No one seems to say Armstrong winning titles in 3 weight divisions stands as a lesser achievement compared to Ray Leonard winning titles in 5 weight divsions, or only half as good as Oscar DeLa Hoya winning in 6 !


Quote:
Let's leave Mayweather's weight-jumping out of the equation for a bit.


Based alone on his career at 130, I think a case can be made for ranking him higher than Rocky anyway. (Especially as I rate his skillset higher.)
I don't see it.
Maybe I don't know enough about his career to get a true grasp of what his great victories are. People are saying he fought much tougher opposition than Marciano did, but I can't see it.
I'm open-minded about it, but at best it's very close between the two.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:21 AM   #35
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

Floyd has been the best fighter in the world from sfw to ww. In a couple of month time he'll have stretched that lmw as well.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:37 AM   #36
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

OG Money is a badboy outlaw killa, he's already p4p top 10 material fo sho.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:13 AM   #37
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

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Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
I'd rate Marciano higher.
He beat Louis, Walcott, Charles, Moore, and defended the undisputed title six times.

The men Mayweather beat that are actually going down as ATG names were actually just as old or past their best as the ones Rocky beat. Who have we got ? DeLaHoya ? Mosley ? Marquez ?

And the titles and weight class stuff I'll admit confuses me.
Just as with Rocky, there are cases to be made for the opposition.

De La Hoya was a Top 3 LMW and WBC titlist coming off a TKO6 of Mayorga having previously failed against Hopkins at 160 a couple years prior.

Mosley was the #2 rated WW (#3 P4P) and WBA champ. In an act that would make stonehands proud, Mayweather refused to pay their sanctioning fees.

Marquez was an opponent Floyd took a lot of heat for fighting at the time being he was the LW champ albeit the #2 P4P. Mayweather completely dominated and shut him out. More than 2 years later, Marquez fights Pacquiao (a 3rd time at highest weight) in what many felt should of been a draw at worst. A little retrospective boost.

In 1998, he defeated Lineal/WBC/#1 Ring rated SFW Gernaro Hernandez (38-1) whose seen induction to WBHOF; In 2001, #1 Ring rated SFW Diego Corrales (33-0) whom Mayweather was an underdog against, in a near flawless beatdown (dropping Corrales five times); In 2002, WBC/#1 Ring rated LW Jose Luis Castillo (45-4) X2 for Ring LW Title, considered Lineal crown; WBC/#1 Ring rated LWW Arturo Gatti (39-6); Ring WW Champ Carlos Baldomir (43-9), hadnt lost in eight years.

Most recently beat Victor Ortiz, WBC/#2 Ring rated WW and will fight WBA/#1 Ring rated LMW Miguel Cotto May 5th.


Very short on time, just a quick overview for you.

Cheers
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:22 AM   #38
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

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Originally Posted by Foreman Hook View Post
OG Money is a badboy outlaw killa, he's already p4p top 10 material fo sho.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQA4iFfgZDE&feature=youtube_gdata_player"]A[/ame]
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:35 AM   #39
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

It's hard to compare a HW to a SFW-WW, I think a better comparison would be Henry Armstrong, compare their opposition and Mayweather's really doesn't look worse in my view.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:44 AM   #40
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hands of Iron View Post
Just as with Rocky, there are cases to be made for the opposition.

De La Hoya was a Top 3 LMW and WBC titlist coming off a TKO6 of Mayorga having previously failed against Hopkins at 160 a couple years prior.

Mosley was the #2 rated WW (#3 P4P) and WBA champ. In an act that would make stonehands proud, Mayweather refused to pay their sanctioning fees.

Marquez was an opponent Floyd took a lot of heat for fighting at the time being he was the LW champ albeit the #2 P4P. Mayweather completely dominated and shut him out. More than 2 years later, Marquez fights Pacquiao (a 3rd time at highest weight) in what many felt should of been a draw at worst. A little retrospective boost.

In 1998, he defeated Lineal/WBC/#1 Ring rated SFW Gernaro Hernandez (38-1) whose seen induction to WBHOF; In 2001, #1 Ring rated SFW Diego Corrales (33-0) whom Mayweather was an underdog against, in a near flawless beatdown (dropping Corrales five times); In 2002, WBC/#1 Ring rated LW Jose Luis Castillo (45-4) X2 for Ring LW Title, considered Lineal crown; WBC/#1 Ring rated LWW Arturo Gatti (39-6); Ring WW Champ Carlos Baldomir (43-9), hadnt lost in eight years.

Most recently beat Victor Ortiz, WBC/#2 Ring rated WW and will fight WBA/#1 Ring rated LMW Miguel Cotto May 5th.


Very short on time, just a quick overview for you.

Cheers
Yeah, thanks.

Just as I thought, not clearly better or tougher opposition than Marciano.
They both beat some good fighters, that much is clear.
Like you say, cases can be made for both of their opposition.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:54 AM   #41
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

If he beats Cotto in a impressive way then I think itīs extremely close.......
I would still say Marciano has the edge in terms of who he won, especially because Charles (Walcott is not an ATG to me, and Moore is a very good win but not great IMO all things considered)....
But, I consider Maywather a great force H2H...and it would be very close to me......
Anyway, I donīt rate neither very high to be honest. (I donīt have a list but both would be outside top 20 Iīm sure of that)
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:11 AM   #42
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

Both in the 80-100 bracket for me. Neither are amongst the true cream of the crop.

Marciano better names, Floyd has a manafactured consistency that's hard to rebut even though I find it a cynical ploy at making a fighter look far better than the sum of his parts. Marciano beat guys around his weight, Floyd has had 'P4P success', which I don't find particularly impressive in this day and age at all.

So, either way not fussed but they're about as great as each other. Marciano was better though IMO.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:15 AM   #43
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
It's hard to compare a HW to a SFW-WW, I think a better comparison would be Henry Armstrong, compare their opposition and Mayweather's really doesn't look worse in my view.
You've lost it pal.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:33 AM   #44
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

Pp, stray away from henry v floyd comparisons. Do yourself a favour.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:35 AM   #45
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Default Re: Would a retired Mayweather rank above Marciano, or not?

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Originally Posted by Flea Man View Post
Marciano beat guys around his weight, Floyd has had 'P4P success', which I don't find particularly impressive in this day and age at all.
Mayweather hasn't done anything I'd consider a exceptional "pound for pound" victory, in the classic sense.
Most the guys he fights are close to his size, a lot of the good ones are smaller, (the biggest names are older than he too).

Marciano beating good men 12 or 25 pounds heavier than him is more impressive, in my opinion.
Mayweather is a legit welterweight, a big 140 man at the least. It's not like he's going around beating up light-heavies, or proper middles even.
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