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Old 04-14-2012, 09:44 AM   #151
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by Legend X View Post
20-year memories are not "completely unreliable". Especially concerning the abilities or character of a person you were acquainted with over a long period.
They are, and there are several peer-reviewed papers on psychological research in this area, supporting said statement. The time scales listed are much smaller though, usually years.


Oh, and the long period you're talking about includes... no slow motion replays, in fact, no replays at all, radio broadcasts of fights, maybe a couple of live fights and a few sparring sessions.
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Old 04-14-2012, 09:47 AM   #152
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

Yeah, I kind of come down on the side of Chris on that memory argument BUT it also needs to be acknowledged that boxing was Blackburn's business. I mean if you were sitting talking to a legend like that Chris, you wouldn't tell him his memories were probably wrong, would you? You'd take on board what he said?

Blackburn would probably stab you in the face if you told him this memory shit, anyway.
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Old 04-14-2012, 10:00 AM   #153
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

I can remember clearly some things from 20-years ago. No emotions attached whatsoever.
If I interview someone about something that happened 20 years ago, a lot of what is said will be 100% accurate, because it is just straight forward remembered facts, not "emotion-based memories" at all.
Books and documentaries on ALL subjects use such interviews extensively.
We remember things.

We don't just live in some emotional haze creating the past reality with our emotions. Well, some people might ....
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:49 AM   #154
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
Liston would clobber Johnson. It's not really fair; Johnson never fought an opponent with any skill over 200lbs nor any opponent that knew how to threw a jab. Liston checks out positive on both of those, and then some. Jacky boy Johnson was ahead of his time and a pioneer, but we have to be realistic - his opponents were cavemen, in a time when gloved boxing was in its infancy and just developing. In the meanwhile, Johnson had already hit adolescence development-wise and was squashing the kindergarten-schooled opponents of his time.
x2
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:51 AM   #155
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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>>>Reports are mixed as to who won. Johnson essentially pulled an Oscar de la Hoya and did very little in the final 10 rounds. Read detailed reports. In one round he threw a grand total of one punch. Johnson vs. Hart was a high stakes match, each man in his prime with the winner being mentioned by the press to fight Jeffries next. When Hart won, Jeffries said he would take the match if people wanted to see it. Few did. At any rate, this shows that a modestly skilled 190 guy with a good work rate, and hart was enough to cause Johnson problems. I could name 50 heavyweight better than Marvin Hart.





>>Well Johnson quit on his stool vs. Klondike, who wasn’t close to a prime Ali. In fact Johnson quit a grand total of 5 times in his career. Most of them happened post Jess Willard. Just saying we can use double standard here.




>> The film is not clear. Johnson was down, rolled over and had to brace himself to get up. The film shows this. Then he floored Kethcel, but lost his balance in the process, which could very well be an indication he was still feeling the effects of the punch. A very crude middle weight did this to Johnson.


Another super middle weight in Choysnki KO’d Johnson cold in three rounds. How in the heck is Johnson going to take Sonny Liston’s punch??!! And another super middle in O’Brien out landed him. Seriously if Liston was Ko’d by one super middleweight ( choynski ), floored by a very crude one ( Ketchel ), and out landed in a third ( O’Brien ) in a fight where people were mixed on to who won, Liston would have been the joke of the heavyweight division!
THESE ARE BLATANT LIES.
Johnson retired in two fights. against Bob Lawson in 1926 he did not come out for the 8th round , he had been floored in the 7th and was exhausted.
JOHNSON HAD GONE 15 RDS TO A DECISION WIN OVER FRINGE CONTENDER PAT LESTER 6' 3.5".225LBS , JUST 28 DAYS PREVIOUSLY

Johnson was 48 years old.


Against Bill Hartwell ,Johnson failed to come out for the 7th round he had broken his hand, Johnson was 50 years old.

6'3" 220LBS BILL HARTWELL, HARTWELL BEAT LARRY GAINS[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

IN HIS NEXT FIGHT. GAINS LASTED ONE ROUND LESS THAN THE 50 YEARS OLD JOHNSON.


George Siler the premier referee of his time, was ringside for the Klondike fight he said the 22 years old Johnson was half starved , and was stopped after flooring Klondike earlier.


Johnson was himself a super middleweight when he fought Choynski.
TEN MONTHS PRIOR TO FIGHTING CHOYNSKI, JOHNSON SCALED 168LBS FOR A FIGHT WITH JACK McCORMICK.

LISTON HAD HIS JAW BROKEN BY A MAN WHO WEIGHED MUCH THE SAME AS CHOYNSKI,AND ONE NOT KNOWN TO BE A PUNCHER.

CHOYNSKI STOPPED JOHNSON WHEN HE WAS ,WHAT CHOYNSKI DESCRIBED AS A NOVICE.

JOHNSON THEN WENT FIFTEEN YEARS BEFORE BEING STOPPED AGAIN , BY A GIANT AFTER SEVENTY EIGHT MINUTES OF FIGHTING IN TROPICAL HEAT,HIS OPPONENT DESCRIBED AS" HOTTER THAN HELL", IN A FIGHT HE WAS WINNING .HE WAS THIRTY SEVEN YEARS OLD.

THE REFEREE JACK WELCH STATED HE WOULD HAVE AWARDED THE FIGHT TO JOHNSON HAD IT BEEN A 25 ROUND FIGHT .


THAT IMPLIES A PRETTY GOOD CHIN.


JOHNSON WAS NOT PRIME FOR HART, PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE OF HIM IN THE RING WITH HART SHOWS A SLENDER, SINEWY JOHNSON CONSIDERABLY LESS MUSCULAR THAN THE MAN WHO REIGNED AS CHAMPION FOR 7 YEARS


A YEAR AFTER FIGHTING HART IN 1905, JOHNSON ONLY SCALED 185LBS FOR HIS FIGHT WITH LANGFORD

ANYONE WHO IS NOT BLIND CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE 1905 JOHNSON ,AND THE 1910 ,208LBS VERSION THAT CRUCIFIED JEFFRIES.


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JOHNSON FOUGHT 7 ROUNDS WITH A BROKEN ARM AGAINST 225LBS BATTLING JIM JOHNSON.

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HE WENT 26 RDS WITH GIANT JESS WILLARD AT AGE 37.


HE WENT INTO THE RING WITH JIM JEFFRIES TWO DAYS AFTER BEING SHOT AT, AND HAVING RECEIVED NUMEROUS DEATH THREATS,AND TREATED THE RABID WHITE AUDIENCE WITH DISDAIN .


Muhammad Ali retired in the ring at age 38 against Holmes. Langford quit in at least 4 fights [,Johnson was 48 & 50].Anyone question Langford's ,or Ali's heart?

Johnson's whole life was lived on a **** you ,I will live how I please, and love who I please attitude.
If ever a man displayed courage in the face of oppression ,and racial intimidation.

JACK JOHNSON WAS THAT MAN.

NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU ARE CORRECTED, YOU STILL REPEAT THE SAME OLD LIES TIME AND AGAIN, AD NAUSEUM.
IT'S A PUZZLE REALLY.EVEN A DOG QUITS WHEN IT KNOWS IT CAN'T CATCH WHAT IT'S CHASING.
I suppose hate can drive you on to lengths you would not reasonably expect.

SAD REALLY. .


This is what sticks in your craw.


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Last edited by mcvey; 04-16-2012 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:38 PM   #156
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yeah, I kind of come down on the side of Chris on that memory argument BUT it also needs to be acknowledged that boxing was Blackburn's business. I mean if you were sitting talking to a legend like that Chris, you wouldn't tell him his memories were probably wrong, would you? You'd take on board what he said?

Blackburn would probably stab you in the face if you told him this memory shit, anyway.
I'd buy Blackburn a beer, and ask him to introduce him to Joe Louis. Then I'd buy Joe a beer, and kindly ask him to keep that right hand up while jabbing.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:58 PM   #157
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
I'd buy Blackburn a beer, and ask him to introduce him to Joe Louis. Then I'd buy Joe a beer, and kindly ask him to keep that right hand up while jabbing.
Both bad ideas C. P. Blackburn was bad news when he was drinking ,and it was Joe's failing to bring his left hand back to the guard position after jabbing that got him kod against Schmeling.

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Last edited by mcvey; 04-15-2012 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 05:12 PM   #158
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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x2
For me the crux of this match-up is ,can Johnson defuse Liston's jab?Can he successfully counter Sonny's shots ,and frustrate him enough to perhaps come strong down the stretch?
I'm not convinced either way ,so remain on the fence.

Last edited by mcvey; 04-16-2012 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:22 AM   #159
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
I'd buy Blackburn a beer, and ask him to introduce him to Joe Louis. Then I'd buy Joe a beer, and kindly ask him to keep that right hand up while jabbing.
How kind of you to offer your advice to two cartoon pretenders like Jack Blackburn and Joe Louis ... since Ali fought way back in the 1960's perhaps you can fly to Michigan and teach him how to jab ... It's never too late ...
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:08 AM   #160
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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How kind of you to offer your advice to two cartoon pretenders like Jack Blackburn and Joe Louis ... since Ali fought way back in the 1960's perhaps you can fly to Michigan and teach him how to jab ... It's never too late ...
That's a bit fierce ,H .E.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:17 PM   #161
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Both bad ideas C. P. Blackburn was bad news when he was drinking ,and it was Joe's failing to bring his left hand back to the guard position after jabbing that got him kod against Schmeling.

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That's alright, I'll bring Ike Ibeabuchi to teach Blackburn the fine art of PsychoPugilism.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:39 PM   #162
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

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That's alright, I'll bring Ike Ibeabuchi to teach Blackburn the fine art of PsychoPugilism.
Good Man.
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Old 04-16-2012, 04:50 PM   #163
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

Can JJ keep Liston at bay and not get overpowered? That's the big question for me, I haven't seen enough of him in good enough footage really. Would Johnson's old school style hold up against Liston's more modern style?

I do think boxing moved on past his time and you can only be the best in your own time at the end of the day
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:20 PM   #164
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

liston would not.. would NEVER overpower Johnson... that is one of the biggest myths I've heard on this forum. Liston NEVER overpowered or manhandled anybody known for strength like Johnson has. To me this fight is very simple..... Johnson is just too smart and too good a counterpuncher to get beat by Liston. Not just that, but he has too much heart and would take Liston to waters he didn't like.. waters that made him quit in previous fights.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:29 PM   #165
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Default Re: Jack Johnson vs. Sonny Liston

Yeah, Eddie Machen stood up to Liston pretty well, threw Sonny around a bit at times. So I can't see how Johnson's going to get manhandled, and he's a better boxer than Machen.
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