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Old 01-09-2008, 02:18 PM   #16
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

I believe people who say that he had some health problems which effected his performance, but I also think that these things are exagerated a bit to justify his defeat to Foreman. Let's face it, Joe was only 29 years old and was undefeated. The fight of the century was the only real war he had ever been in. Its not like he had been fighting grueling battles his whole life. He was a little over his best weight against Foreman, but how much are we really talking about? 5-8 Lbs? He would continue to have some decent performances, and even looked better in his rematch against Foreman than he did in the first fight.

Once again, I think Frazier had developed some legitimate health issues by 1973 which may have affected his performance, but I don't buy into the concept that he was totally shot.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:22 PM   #17
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I believe people who say that he had some health problems which effected his performance, but I also think that these things are exagerated a bit to justify his defeat to Foreman. Let's face it, Joe was only 29 years old and was undefeated. The fight of the century was the only real war he had ever been in. Its not like he had been fighting grueling battles his whole life. He was a little over his best weight against Foreman, but how much are we really talking about? 5-8 Lbs? He would continue to have some decent performances, and even looked better in his rematch against Foreman than he did in the first fight.

Once again, I think Frazier had developed some legitimate health issues by 1973 which may have affected his performance, but I don't buy into the concept that he was totally shot.
Some people here even claim Frazier was past it before he fought Ali.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Some people here even claim Frazier was past it before he fought Ali.
For whatever reason, there seems to be a double standard that Frazier fans have. On one hand, they make no allowence for the fact that muhammad Ali was off for nearly 4 full years before fighting Frazier, yet they steadfastly claim that Frazier was declining from a health standpoint against Foreman. Sure, he may have had some mild cases of diabetes and high blood pressure, but its not like the guy was coming off the operating table after having a heart transplant or something. He was 29 years old, and visibly in decent shape without ever having a previous loss. People need to come to terms with the fact that Foreman was just a bad match for Frazier, and that it wasn't a case of a fighter being out of his prime.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:33 PM   #19
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

After it he started going out partying way too much, plus his singing career (ha) got in the way of training. He let himself go. Yancy Durham dying did not help.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:35 PM   #20
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
For whatever reason, there seems to be a double standard that Frazier fans have. On one hand, they make no allowence for the fact that muhammad Ali was off for nearly 4 full years before fighting Frazier, yet they steadfastly claim that Frazier was declining from a health standpoint against Foreman. Sure, he may have had some mild cases of diabetes and high blood pressure, but its not like the guy was coming off the operating table after having a heart transplant or something. He was 29 years old, and visibly in decent shape without ever having a previous loss. People need to come to terms with the fact that Foreman was just a bad match for Frazier, and that it wasn't a case of a fighter being out of his prime.
Ali was not off for 4 years, or even 3, since he was always training, had his trainer available at all times, boxed in exhibitions, etc. If he had stayed champ those 3 years his career would have been shortened anyway.
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Old 01-09-2008, 02:48 PM   #21
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Originally Posted by Hank
Ali was not off for 4 years, or even 3, since he was always training, had his trainer available at all times, boxed in exhibitions, etc. If he had stayed champ those 3 years his career would have been shortened anyway.
Ali was not always training. He balooned up to 240+lbs. during his layoff. he had to make money to support his family by doing plays, making speeches at colleges, and TV appearences, so there wasn't much time to train.
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:55 PM   #22
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Was he? Why?
Why would he be shot because he got beat?.Frazier beat on ATG, a man coming back after 4 years ,who had had 18 rounds of competive boxing in that time,Frazier left something in the ring that night in the Garden ,but so did Ali,and he went on to record great victories after.Frazier wouldnt beat Foreman 2 times outr of a 100 ,he only knew one way to fight ,march straight in,Foreman must have dreamed about little short guys coming to him,so he could land his sweeping hooks and heavy uppercuts. Frazier had 5 fights with great fighters and won 1.thats the story.imo.
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Old 01-09-2008, 03:56 PM   #23
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

Why would he be shot because he got beat?.Frazier beat on ATG, a man coming back after 4 years ,who had had 18 rounds of competive boxing in that time,Frazier left something in the ring that night in the Garden ,but so did Ali,and he went on to record great victories after.Frazier wouldnt beat Foreman 2 times outr of a 100 ,he only knew one way to fight ,march straight in,Foreman must have dreamed about little short guys coming to him,so he could land his sweeping hooks and heavy uppercuts. Frazier had 5 fights with great fighters and won 1.thats the story.imo.
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Originally Posted by SteveO
That's my feeling. I've just heard people say (and maybe they're romanticizing his win a bit) that he gave it all in the first fight and was damaged goods ever since.
I don't think that's romanticing things at all. Frazier really hated Ali because of the way Ali treated him. He wanted nothing more than to beat and humiliate Ali. He gave it all to beat Ali, but part of him died. Despite winning, he took a lot of punches. Not the ones that knock you out, but the ones that do long-term damage.

That said, Foreman would always beat him, 71 or 73.
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:31 PM   #25
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I believe people who say that he had some health problems which effected his performance, but I also think that these things are exagerated a bit to justify his defeat to Foreman. Let's face it, Joe was only 29 years old and was undefeated. The fight of the century was the only real war he had ever been in. Its not like he had been fighting grueling battles his whole life.
Well i have to disagree on that last statement. Frazier was a slow starter. Quarry was giving him a pretty bad beating early. Ellis smacked the shit out of him early. Both of the Bonavena fights weren't easy either. Got knocked down twice in the first fight, and the second went the full 15. That combined with Frazier's style of taking punches to get inside and a lot of punishement from Ali (60 punches a round thrown by Ali) takes something out of you. They weren't knockout blows, but long term damaging ones anyway. He also had the blood pressure problems.
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:49 PM   #26
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

I think Joe Frazier had been in lots of wars before he faced Ali.

25 total rounds with Bonavena were tough on Joe. Bonavena was a real pain in the ass style for Joe, and Joe fought his fights in the trenches with everyone.

He soaked up a fair bit of punishment against Quarry, Ellis, Mathis, Machen too. Some tough punishing fights there.

And that's going in to the Ali fight.
By the time he'd done those 15 rounds with Ali I reckon he's one of the most battle-tested and battle-scarred heavyweights in history.
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Old 01-09-2008, 04:59 PM   #27
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

Films never lie. Compare Frazier in '71 and '73.
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:46 PM   #28
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
For whatever reason, there seems to be a double standard that Frazier fans have. On one hand, they make no allowence for the fact that muhammad Ali was off for nearly 4 full years before fighting Frazier, yet they steadfastly claim that Frazier was declining from a health standpoint against Foreman. Sure, he may have had some mild cases of diabetes and high blood pressure, but its not like the guy was coming off the operating table after having a heart transplant or something. He was 29 years old, and visibly in decent shape without ever having a previous loss. People need to come to terms with the fact that Foreman was just a bad match for Frazier, and that it wasn't a case of a fighter being out of his prime.
unfortunately almost every fan claims that thier fav lost due to not being prime...frazier would never beat Ali in his prime...tyson wouldn't lose to douglas, Holy, lewis if he was prime...hamed was outa shape or he would have killed barrera...It gets tiring! i am a frazier fan and no I don't think he was shot...he may not have been 100% physical peak (not necesarily my claim!), but he was at or pretty darn close (like Ali, hamed, Tyson etc.)..the substantial decline happened post foreman I and even then he would be a tough out for just about anyone (ala Ali III). sure there reaches a time when a fighter is not close to his peak anymore (Tyson-mcBride...chacon-Mancini...Holmes-Tyson...Ali-Holmes etc)..but untill then I don't like excuses for or against!
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Old 01-09-2008, 05:56 PM   #29
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Well i have to disagree on that last statement. Frazier was a slow starter. Quarry was giving him a pretty bad beating early. Ellis smacked the shit out of him early. Both of the Bonavena fights weren't easy either. Got knocked down twice in the first fight, and the second went the full 15. That combined with Frazier's style of taking punches to get inside and a lot of punishement from Ali (60 punches a round thrown by Ali) takes something out of you. They weren't knockout blows, but long term damaging ones anyway. He also had the blood pressure problems.
Tough fights, yes. Wars? probably not. I don't know how anyone can compare Frazier's outings with Quarry and Ellis to his first meeting with Muhammad Ali. Now that was a true war. The other fights were definately good challenges for him though. Anyway, my point is that Frazier should not have been totally ring worn by the time he fought Foreman regardless of what people's perception of his previous accomplishements were, Chris.
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Old 01-09-2008, 06:00 PM   #30
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Default Re: Was Joe Frazier shot after the Fight of the Century?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Well i have to disagree on that last statement. Frazier was a slow starter. Quarry was giving him a pretty bad beating early. Ellis smacked the shit out of him early. Both of the Bonavena fights weren't easy either. Got knocked down twice in the first fight, and the second went the full 15. That combined with Frazier's style of taking punches to get inside and a lot of punishement from Ali (60 punches a round thrown by Ali) takes something out of you. They weren't knockout blows, but long term damaging ones anyway. He also had the blood pressure problems.
Quarry may have won the 1st rd but it was way to close to call a beating...frazier won a close 2nd rd...(one judge 1-1 the other 2-0) but very close rds. I think he was tested more than portrayed, but Quarry hardley purt a beating on him...I had it 6 rds to 1 frazier (watched last night matter of fact!).
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