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Old 01-12-2008, 05:22 PM   #61
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Even Louis didn't think about himself being that good at the time. Neither did contemporary authors, they all knew Louis was clearly past his best. Due to specifics of his style, his reflexes and handspeed slowing down meant a lot for his effectiveness (as a counter-puncher), so that looking good against that version of Louis means a lot less that some people tend to think. But that's just my opinion.
.
Actually, I think you make a very good point here.
Louis had slipped considerably, I will concede that.

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Walcott looks very poor in his fights vs Charles, not that Charles looks much more impressive to me, but neither man looks like a true boxing master in their fights with that flat-footed slow-paced in-fighting with lots of clinches and in general fights being not very clean, both getting tagged by punches a lot more often than one could think by simply reading about them, and neither showing particularly impressive offensive arsenal either.
Walcott impresses me in the 3rd fight, where he wins the title.

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Looking good, or, rather, making Marciano look bad, it not that much of an achievement. Skills, coordination, cleverness, smoothness, Marciano looks very poor at all these things, so it wasn't that hard to look good against him for a while
I thought they both good pretty good in that first fight.
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Old 01-12-2008, 10:33 PM   #62
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

Toney did not have one punch Knock out power, as big +bad said, and the division was far from weak, as someone else said. Weak?? Boxing was still at a peak, and there were many more fighters bxing as pros at time.
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:28 AM   #63
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I thought they both good pretty good in that first fight.
Marciano is not pressing the action enough and not throwing enough punches, things that were the essence of his success.
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Old 01-13-2008, 05:21 AM   #64
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Marciano is not pressing the action enough and not throwing enough punches, things that were the essence of his success.
BUT, Marciano won them all, regardlesss of the how, right?

Marciano changed his fighting style dependent upon who he was fighting. Whether the change was for better or worse, he beat them all. So in the end his chosen style prevailed.

Maybe he needed a couple of eastside experts to inform him on how to win a fight? I doubt it...
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Old 01-13-2008, 06:36 AM   #65
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

The thing is, however we want to regard Walcott - as a great fighter, a good fighter, or merely as a caretaker champ in a weak era - his accomplishments against opposition over 175 pounds - or even 168 - CLEARLY puts James Toney to shame.

Walcott may have fought Louis when Louis was old and had slipped, but Toney fought a 40 year old Holyfield who didn't even deserve to be ranked. I thought Toney looked good that night BUT Holyfield was no opposition at all. A shot fighter.
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Old 01-13-2008, 07:12 AM   #66
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

I was not talking about this matchup. I think it'd be a snorefest, to say the truth, with neither fighter proving their superiority over each other enough to come up with a clear winner. As a boxer, Toney was clearly better, but this is style matchup that won't allow him to show his best qualities, in my opinion. Walcott knocking Toney out isn't happening either, he doesn't have the precision and the punchrate to catch Toney with several clean flush punches in a short time, and he's not knocking him out with one or two punches, Toney's chin is too good for that (better than Walcott's too, but Toney doesn't have one-punch KO power either to stop Joe).

Last edited by El Presidente; 12-20-2006 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 01-13-2008, 07:21 AM   #67
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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Originally Posted by Senya13
I was not talking about this matchup. I think it'd be a snorefest, to say the truth, with neither fighter proving their superiority over each other enough to come up with a clear winner. As a boxer, Toney was clearly better, but this is style matchup that won't allow him to show his best qualities, in my opinion. Walcott knocking Toney out isn't happening either, he doesn't have the precision and the punchrate to catch Toney with several clean flush punches in a short time, and he's not knocking him out with one or two punches, Toney's chin is too good for that (better than Walcott's too, but Toney doesn't have one-punch KO power either to stop Joe).
If Walcott caught Toney with the kind of punch that KO'd Ezzard Charles, I think Toney would be KO'd too.
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Old 01-13-2008, 08:04 AM   #68
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

1) It's hardly happening, they fought a combined total of 51+ rounds, Walcott was able to land such precise flush punch only once.

2) Toney has a proven better chin than Charles.
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Old 01-13-2008, 03:57 PM   #69
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
The thing is, however we want to regard Walcott - as a great fighter, a good fighter, or merely as a caretaker champ in a weak era - his accomplishments against opposition over 175 pounds - or even 168 - CLEARLY puts James Toney to shame.

Walcott may have fought Louis when Louis was old and had slipped, but Toney fought a 40 year old Holyfield who didn't even deserve to be ranked. I thought Toney looked good that night BUT Holyfield was no opposition at all. A shot fighter.
i enjoy watching the holyfield fight. becos in the beginning holyfield came out very aggressive, he didnt look shot until he got shot in rounds 3 and 4. also at the end of the fight he said toney was too good too fast and a step ahead.
by watching this fight you could easily tell that toney would have whooped holyfield in his prime too.

holyfield was throwing punches, just that toney would counter and make him pay HEAVY! he hurt holyfield badly that night, both physically and mentally. its amazing how toney's confidence got to evander that night.

also if he was soo shot then how did he manage to fight for a world title and hold his own 4 years later?

toney beats holyfield everytime.
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:01 PM   #70
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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Originally Posted by Hank
Toney did not have one punch Knock out power, as big +bad said, and the division was far from weak, as someone else said. Weak?? Boxing was still at a peak, and there were many more fighters bxing as pros at time.
toney was knocking guys out until he got to the heavyweight division. matter of fact, he did knock some journeymen heavyweights out.

in the middleweight division he was deadly but he concentrated more on speed imo, until he needed the power and really sat down on his shots. in the super middleweight division he had a beautiful blend of speed AND POWER. same with at light heavyweight although it seemed he wasnt punching with great power at LH. but when he moved to cruiserweight, with all that weight, and speed, his punches became heavy, thats why he had more than a few 1 PUNCH KNOCKOUTS AT cruiserweight.
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Old 01-14-2008, 04:26 AM   #71
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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Originally Posted by Senya13
I was not talking about this matchup. I think it'd be a snorefest, to say the truth, with neither fighter proving their superiority over each other enough to come up with a clear winner.
That's funny, seeing how on the front page you say as your first reponse, "Toney wins easily."
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Old 01-14-2008, 04:32 AM   #72
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

You're kidding,...right?? Gotta go with Jersey Joe!!!!
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Old 01-14-2008, 04:48 AM   #73
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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Originally Posted by Senya13
Referee (who gave it to Walcott) often sees the fight different from judges sitting at ringside.

NYT's James P. Dawson saw it 8-7 for Louis and Arthur Daley 9-6 for Louis.
AP poll had 20 out of 34 writers voting for Walcott, but they couldnt really explain how a fighter who runs away all the time deserves a win.
Most criticism came from people who either watched it on TV or listened a radio broadcast, those who attended it live were less critical.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Victim of the boldest robbery in modern heavyweight annals was 33-year-old [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], the 10 to 1 shot, who licked Louis convincingly in 15 rounds and then was frisked of the title by the stunning decision of the judges.
-Joe Williams, New York World

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Los Angeles Times -- Dec 6, 1947

Fans Boo Verdict to Champion
Jersey Joe Walcott, 33-yearold father of six children, smashed Heavyweight Champion Joe LOUIS to the canvas twice tonight and gave him a boxing lesson for 15 rounds, but the ring officials awarded Louis the decision...
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British sportswriter Pete Wilson called the first Walcott-Louis fight the "greatest robbery since Colonel Blood stole the crown jewels."

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Old 01-14-2008, 04:50 AM   #74
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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That's funny, seeing how on the front page you say as your first reponse, "Toney wins easily."
Which, obviously, was a provocation to those who thought Walcott was going to be an easy winner. Nothing could be further from reality.
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Old 01-14-2008, 06:01 AM   #75
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Default Re: James Toney ~VS~ Jersey Joe Walcott

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Originally Posted by Big N Bad
i enjoy watching the holyfield fight. becos in the beginning holyfield came out very aggressive, he didnt look shot until he got shot in rounds 3 and 4. also at the end of the fight he said toney was too good too fast and a step ahead.
by watching this fight you could easily tell that toney would have whooped holyfield in his prime too.

holyfield was throwing punches, just that toney would counter and make him pay HEAVY! he hurt holyfield badly that night, both physically and mentally. its amazing how toney's confidence got to evander that night.

also if he was soo shot then how did he manage to fight for a world title and hold his own 4 years later?

toney beats holyfield everytime.

I guess you think Chris Byrd and John Ruiz and Larry Donald would beat a prime Holyfield too.
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