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Old 01-09-2008, 09:20 AM   #1
Russell
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Default Carlos Monzon Questions

I know the forums general feelings towards Monzon, but I've got some comments/questions regardless.

Despite how long he went undefeated for at the end of his career, looking over his record he's got some odd things that stick out to me.

He had nine draws over the course of his career, including one against a fighter by the name of Ubaldo Marcos Bustos, a fighter with a final record of 1/8/1.

Monzon was green, you might say... But so was Bustos and prior to the Monzon fight he had lost four fights in a row. Immediantly after drawing with Monzon? Four more losses.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a draw but nine of them? All taking place in Argentina, his birth place?

Eh.

Some feel he lost against Briscoe in that draw as well, correct?
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Old 01-09-2008, 12:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

In a lot of south American countries at the time it was scored a draw unless you dominated the opponent by more than 4 points or so.

Also keep in mind while these fighters he was fighting were probably not world class, boxrec will have very incomplete records for them.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

In addition to what Mantequilla said, Monzon was also more laid back during his earlier career, not as focused. Once he realised he was actually talented, his attitude changed.

It's also important to note that Monzon avenged most of the losses or draws.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:32 PM   #4
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

What the others said. Check out the records of Locche, Aguilar, etc for similar 'draws'. Also, around 6 of the 9 took place in the other guy's hometown, not his. The 'he really lost to Briscoe' is just guess work mostly, I've yet to read any other proof. Even Benny's "A draw in the other guy's country is really a win, right?" is not overly convincing.
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Old 01-09-2008, 01:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

I reckon that's settled it
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:02 AM   #6
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

I watched a film of the second Monzon fight with Emile Griffith. Griffith hurt him with several left hooks and I thought Grififth won.

Otherwise, I think Monzon was incredibly accurate puncher and very good at blocking and pulling back from punches. HIs right was like a guided missle. Check out its trajectory if you can find a clip of his knockout of Benvenuti.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:09 AM   #7
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantequilla
In a lot of south American countries at the time it was scored a draw unless you dominated the opponent by more than 4 points or so.

Also keep in mind while these fighters he was fighting were probably not world class, boxrec will have very incomplete records for them.
Exactly.

The records of most Argentine boxers from Monzon's era included a high number of draws. Argentina at the time was known for rendering more draws than any other country in the world.

Some European countries during Monzon's era also rendered many draws, such as Italy.

In the United States the opposite has always been true. Even in extremely closely contested fights, American judges are pressured to choose a winner.

I don't think that Monzon's nine draws tell us anything negative about him, especially since most of those draws took place early in his career.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:12 AM   #8
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by markedwardscott
I watched a film of the second Monzon fight with Emile Griffith. Griffith hurt him with several left hooks and I thought Grififth won.
Are you sure? I don't remember Griffith hurting Monzon in their rematch. It is true though that Monzon looked slugglish throughout the bout, which explains why some felt that Griffith deserved the decision.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:16 AM   #9
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantequilla
Also keep in mind while these fighters he was fighting were probably not world class, boxrec will have very incomplete records for them.
I would add that Monzon never had an amateur career. This is important to remember when assessing Monzon's early record in Argentina. Monzon was literally learning the basics of boxing in his early years as a pro, which explains why he had a high number of closely fought fights.

If I remember correctly, Monzon later decisively defeated most of the guys who held him to draws in his early years.
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Old 02-02-2008, 11:08 AM   #10
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenmore
Are you sure? I don't remember Griffith hurting Monzon in their rematch. It is true though that Monzon looked slugglish throughout the bout, which explains why some felt that Griffith deserved the decision.

In the exchanges, where Monzon usually lands every punch and makes the other guy miss, Griffith would loop his left hook to the jaw whenever Monzon threw the right. That's the cool thing about watching fights on DVD, you can see each punch. Monzon's head would snap back from the hooks but he had a great chin.
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:01 PM   #11
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Default Re: Carlos Monzon Questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by markedwardscott
In the exchanges, where Monzon usually lands every punch and makes the other guy miss, Griffith would loop his left hook to the jaw whenever Monzon threw the right. That's the cool thing about watching fights on DVD, you can see each punch. Monzon's head would snap back from the hooks but he had a great chin.
Thanks. I'll give the film a closer look next time.

If I remember correctly, the color commentary for that fight was done by Howard Cosell. Cosell was terrible at calling the action inside ring, which makes the fight that much harder for the viewer to follow.
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