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Old 01-10-2008, 01:46 PM   #1
garymcfall
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Default Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Joe Louis never proved in the ring that he deserves to be the greatest ever because he never beat a single top 10/top15 heavyweight of all time. Muhammad Ali on the other hand, beat three top tenners and several top 25's. Justify putting Louis above Ali in terms of greatness

(This isnt an opinion, just interested to see how people who have Louis Number one justify his selection)
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Old 01-10-2008, 02:55 PM   #2
Russell
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Schmeling and Walcott aren't exactly low ranking HW's.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:19 PM   #3
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by garymcfall
Joe Louis never proved in the ring that he deserves to be the greatest ever because he never beat a single top 10/top15 heavyweight of all time. Muhammad Ali on the other hand, beat three top tenners and several top 25's. Justify putting Louis above Ali in terms of greatness

(This isnt an opinion, just interested to see how people who have Louis Number one justify his selection)
Simple really.

Louis fought in a weaker era but he was much more consistent and dominant.

So take your pick.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Schmeling and Walcott aren't exactly low ranking HW's.
Neither are Liston, Frazier , Foreman, Norton etc. I'm not disputing that Schmeling and Walcott werent great fighers, they were, im just asking how someone can justify having Louis infront of Ali in terms of legacy and greatness.
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Simple really.

Louis fought in a weaker era but he was much more consistent and dominant.

So take your pick.
But do we know the truth about Joe Louis? Do we know how he'd really do against atg's such as marciano, frazier, foreman, dempsey, lewis, holmes etc? Ali beat three of the top ten greatest heavyweights of all time in my book so we KNOW that he is not only in that company, but probably the best in that company. The same can not be said for Louis, because he never actually proved it, true, or false?
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:47 PM   #6
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

It's just an opinion to say Liston, Frazier and Foreman must rate higher than Walcott or Schmeling, for example.

All-time rankings are just opinion.

To say Ali must be number 1 because he beat X, Y and Z who are rated 7,8 and 9 for example, is BAD LOGIC because it presupposes the rankings that it sets out to prove.
In other words, you've already DECIDED who ranks where and then you pretend you're reasoning objectively to come up with your number 1 !
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by garymcfall
But do we know the truth about Joe Louis? Do we know how he'd really do against atg's such as marciano, frazier, foreman, dempsey, lewis, holmes etc?
That logic cuts both ways.

I could play devils advocate and argue that the contenders of Louis's era were better than the best of the 70s but they failed to establish themselves as greats because Louis was so far ahead of the field and dominated them.

Quote:
Ali beat three of the top ten greatest heavyweights of all time in my book so we KNOW that he is not only in that company, but probably the best in that company. The same can not be said for Louis, because he never actually proved it, true, or false?
My take?

The best of Louis's era (Baer, Schmeling and Walcott) were indeed behind Liston, Frazier and Foreman qualatativley but ahead of the rest of that era including Norton. Therfore they have no real paralels in the 70s.

Louis might not have beaten a Frazier or Foreman but he crushed the Quarrys, Youngs and Lyles of his era so convincingly that they became known as the bum of the month club.

It is a dificult comparison at the end of the day. I could pick some of Ali's oponents that Louis would fare better against and vice versa.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

[quote=janitor]
Quote:

That logic cuts both ways.

I could play devils advocate and argue that the contenders of Louis's era were better than the best of the 70s but they failed to establish themselves as greats because Louis was so far ahead of the field and dominated them.



My take?

The best of Louis's era (Baer, Schmeling and Walcott) were indeed behind Liston, Frazier and Foreman qualatativley but ahead of the rest of that era including Norton. Therfore they have no real paralels in the 70s.

Louis might not have beaten a Frazier or Foreman but he crushed the Quarrys, Youngs and Lyles of his era so convincingly that they became known as the bum of the month club.

It is a dificult comparison at the end of the day. I could pick some of Ali's oponents that Louis would fare better against and vice versa.
Totally agree, I can't Louis for not fighting a fellow top 10 ATG opponent but he fought who was there and beat them all.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:30 PM   #9
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Schmeling and Walcott aren't exactly low ranking HW's.
They both rank outside of the top 10. I don't think they come close to being widely considered better than either Frazier, Foreman or Liston.

Whilst they were good, they weren't that good. They probably rank about as high as a guy like Ken Norton.
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:32 PM   #10
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
They both rank outside of the top 10. I don't think they come close to being widely considered better than either Frazier, Foreman or Liston.

Whilst they were good, they weren't that good. They probably rank about as high as a guy like Ken Norton.
no higher
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:53 PM   #11
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Foreman was strong and powerful and all that, but Walcott was a better boxer.
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Old 01-10-2008, 05:05 PM   #12
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
It's just an opinion to say Liston, Frazier and Foreman must rate higher than Walcott or Schmeling, for example.

All-time rankings are just opinion.

To say Ali must be number 1 because he beat X, Y and Z who are rated 7,8 and 9 for example, is BAD LOGIC because it presupposes the rankings that it sets out to prove.
In other words, you've already DECIDED who ranks where and then you pretend you're reasoning objectively to come up with your number 1 !
What do you consider as being GOOD LOGIC? I'm curious as to how you go about making your ratings while avoiding the bias trap.
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Old 01-10-2008, 05:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Foreman was strong and powerful and all that, but Walcott was a better boxer.
A Foreman Walcott fight would be in no way a foregone conclusion.
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Old 01-10-2008, 05:10 PM   #14
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Louis was more dominant and active. Not really Ali's fault that he had the Vietnam-break, but it happened anyway. Look up Louis' record, after winning the title it's gigantic string of KO.. KO... TKO..KO. Also, Ali lost to a prime Frazier but beat him when Frazier declined (of course Ali wasn't at his peak either) and according to most here (not me), Liston was far past his best for the Ali fights.
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Old 01-10-2008, 05:39 PM   #15
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
What do you consider as being GOOD LOGIC? I'm curious as to how you go about making your ratings while avoiding the bias trap.
Saying that fighter A must be number 1 because he beat B, C, and D who are 7,8 and 9 is clearly not logical, but it is being presented here as not only logical but as something that is OBJECTIVE and not mere opinion.

That's what I'm responding to, the claim that those ratings are written in stone and not debatable.

The last thing in the world that I'd argue is that we can be completely objective and somehow come up with the "correct" ratings. It's that kind of thing that I'm arguing AGAINST.
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