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Old 01-13-2008, 12:04 PM   #61
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by Russell
Schmeling and Walcott aren't exactly low ranking HW's.
Don't think those are two very good examples. Louis first victory over Walcott is generally accepted to have been a robbery, and Schmeling comprehensivily beat Louis in their first meeting.

So if Louis meetings with these men are his greatest claim to greatness I would agree that he's overrated. He did beat a ****load of others though, but probably no really great ones.
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:09 PM   #62
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab

Still, I think it's a stretch to "excuse" his loss to Schmeling by way of saying he was "green" or "not prime yet" since he was already a more complete fighter than almost every other fighter, and had already earned the right to be considered the world's top fighter. This wasn't like losing a fight on the way up, Louis was number 1 contender and had a better record than the champ Jimmy Braddock, who was considered inferior.
Oh, don't get me wrong, i think Louis was in his prime for the first Schmeling fight. Not at the peak of his powers, but it's not like he was oblivious to the boxing game. Like you put it, i think the Baer fight is a fine argument that Louis was in his prime for Schmeling I. Just that he went on to improve even further after that.
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:15 PM   #63
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Oh, don't get me wrong, i think Louis was in his prime for the first Schmeling fight. Not at the peak of his powers, but it's not like he was oblivious to the boxing game. Like you put it, i think the Baer fight is a fine argument that Louis was in his prime for Schmeling I. Just that he went on to improve even further after that.
I agree 100%
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:23 PM   #64
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Actually, it works the other way round too.

Saying (Ali opponent) was better than everyone Louis fought, or that he beats them all, is based on WHAT ?
Foreman Frazier and Liston are top 10 or near top 10 HWS.

the only guy from the Louis opponents that Bummy provided who is a legit top 10 ATG HW is Marciano.

The era that Louis dominated was overall a pretty dismal era i give Louis credit for dominating it so long .but not for the class of men that he fought.
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:33 PM   #65
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by godking
Foreman Frazier and Liston are top 10 or near top 10 HWS.
That's not written in stone. YOU might have them in your top 10, but that's just an opinion.

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the only guy from the Louis opponents that Bummy provided who is a legit top 10 ATG HW is Marciano.
Well, again, that's down to personal opinion.
Walcott and Schmeling, and even Baer, have appeared in top 10 lists.

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The era that Louis dominated was overall a pretty dismal era i give Louis credit for dominating it so long .but not for the class of men that he fought
Which eras do you rate highly for heavyweights ?
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:44 PM   #66
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Well, I see Walcott beating Foreman or at least having a real chance of doing so.

Few people would agree with me but would at least concede that my comparison of the two fighters and their strengths & weaknesses has some merit. A lot of people would concede that Walcott probably beat more contenders and was a more versatile fighter himself. Therefore, under certain reasonable criteria it's not wrong to judge Walcott to be a better fighter than , or as good as, or almost as good as, George Foreman.

That's the essence of my point. It's not written in stone than Foreman was better than Walcott. In fact, until the successful return of Foreman in the 90s, coupled with an ever-growing nostalgia for the Ali-Foreman event in Zaire 1974, and the re-appraisal of a young Foreman resulting from both those phenomenon, the 70s Foreman wasn't actually held in that high regard.

In the 80s the retired ex-champ Foreman was considered by most to be a flash-in-the-pan menacing clubber who petered out quite dramatically against Ali, and really only had the win over Frazier and not much else. Not a "great" fighter, just a powerful scary force who was exposed as crude, cumbersome and unable to adapt in a long difficult fight.

Saying Walcott was better than Foreman or should rank higher on the all-time list was probably the voice of the consensus up until the late 80s/early 90s.

And that's the other aspect of the point I'm making. Foreman's greatness, IMO, is to a large degree based on his comeback, and that's fair. In fact, him winning the title back 20 years after losing it justifies him being ranked as high as the top 3, but it doesn't make him as he was in the 70s as any BETTER - all the previous criticisms still apply.



Prior to facing Joe Frazier, it was Foreman's management's apparent decision to build him up on second- and third-rate opposition.

After losing to Ali, Foreman's new management were less cautious and Foreman almost got beat by Ron Lyle, and got whipped by Jimmy Young.

In his autobiography, commenting on his comeback, Foreman admits that his strategy was what he calls "ballyhooing" which he roughly describes as matching himself with guys who were second-rate and lower, avoiding anything risky, to create KO victories and a media stir.
Importantly he considers the "art of ballyhooing" something that he was schooled in during his FIRST career.

Foreman doesn't make excuses for his lack of quality opposition, he openly admits cautious (mis)matchmaking accounts for much of his success in both his careers.

I'm not saying good boxers were avoided any more so than good punchers, I'm just pointing out that his wins over top drawer "slick" or "cute" boxers are minimal.
As it applies to matching him with Walcott, I'd say Walcott was a boxer-puncher, a pretty damn good one.
Actually, the panel of historians/experts assembled by the AP in 2000 to pick the top ten heavyweights of the 20th century rated Walcott #10 and did not rate Foreman.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:34 PM   #67
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
Actually, the panel of historians/experts assembled by the AP in 2000 to pick the top ten heavyweights of the 20th century rated Walcott #10 and did not rate Foreman.
Thanks for the info.

Perhaps it's only here on ESB classic where such a ranking is seen as blasphemy.

Or perhaps the AP panel were the same old guys who haven't changed their rankings much since 1980, and ESB might be more representative of the next generation.

Either way, it backs up my point against the "Foreman, Frazier and Liston were all top 10 all time HWs, no one Louis beat was top 10 all time HW" stuff that people here are spouting as if it's gospel.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:56 PM   #68
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
That's not written in stone. YOU might have them in your top 10, but that's just an opinion.



Well, again, that's down to personal opinion.
Walcott and Schmeling, and even Baer, have appeared in top 10 lists.



Which eras do you rate highly for heavyweights ?
You can make cases for Frazier Foreman and Liston for a top ten ranking based on ability and skill and achievements.

there is no logical case to be made for Schmelling Walcott or Baer for a top 10 ranking based on records abilities and achievements.

Fighters are ranked on ability records achievements and longlivety Schmelling Walcott and Baer fail on most points.

The 70s and the 90s where overall the best eras.

the 80s was the best era in regards to pure talent but loses points because of being the Coke era and overall lazyness of contenders.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:59 PM   #69
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

Actually, the AP panel rated both Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier above Jersey Joe Walcott, so I guess it supports both sides of the debate.

But panel is just a few nore guys with a few more opinions. And that's exactly my point. Ratings are just opinions.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:08 PM   #70
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Thanks for the info.

Perhaps it's only here on ESB classic where such a ranking is seen as blasphemy.

Or perhaps the AP panel were the same old guys who haven't changed their rankings much since 1980, and ESB might be more representative of the next generation.

Either way, it backs up my point against the "Foreman, Frazier and Liston were all top 10 all time HWs, no one Louis beat was top 10 all time HW" stuff that people here are spouting as if it's gospel.
A man with 16 losses is top 10 material ?.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:08 PM   #71
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by godking
You can make cases for Frazier Foreman and Liston for a top ten ranking based on ability and skill and achievements.

there is no logical case to be made for Schmelling Walcott or Baer for a top 10 ranking based on records abilities and achievements.

Fighters are ranked on ability records achievements and longlivety Schmelling Walcott and Baer fail on most points.
.
But Walcott and Schmeling probably beat more of the genuine contenders of their era than George Foreman did. Foreman has a padded record.
Foreman's superior "skill" is not apparent to me, he looked amateurish against Ali.

Liston punked out in two fights with Ali. Liston was pathetic quitting like that against Ali. That could be used as a legitimate reason to place him down the rankings.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:10 PM   #72
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Actually, the AP panel rated both Sonny Liston and Joe Frazier above Jersey Joe Walcott, so I guess it supports both sides of the debate.

But panel is just a few nore guys with a few more opinions. And that's exactly my point. Ratings are just opinions.
opinions have to be backed up with facts.

The facts dont support a top 10 ranking for Wallcot.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:14 PM   #73
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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The 70s and the 90s where overall the best eras.

the 80s was the best era in regards to pure talent but loses points because of being the Coke era and overall lazyness of contenders
I think the 80s was probably better than the 90s, to be honest.

The 60s, and the EARLY 70s was a pretty good era.

From the mid-70s through to around '82 was rather bad really. Ali fighting wrestlers and ****, Chuck Wepner, Ali-Young YUK !
Zaire and Manila were good fights, but the rest of it after that was really awful.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:19 PM   #74
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by godking
opinions have to be backed up with facts.

The facts dont support a top 10 ranking for Wallcot.
That's just another opinion.
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Old 01-13-2008, 02:56 PM   #75
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Default Re: Joe Louis Never Proved That He Deserves The Number One Slot ATG Heavyweights

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
But Walcott and Schmeling probably beat more of the genuine contenders of their era than George Foreman did. Foreman has a padded record.
Foreman's superior "skill" is not apparent to me, he looked amateurish against Ali.

Liston punked out in two fights with Ali. Liston was pathetic quitting like that against Ali. That could be used as a legitimate reason to place him down the rankings.
Not to mention that Frazier beat him thoroughly when both were closest their best.
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